Candi Sygar V's Table (beet) Sugar

[braufrau]

Came home, added water and lemon juice and started boiling. Only to discover that the bargain candi thermometer I got that says it goes up to 200C, actually didn't go above 120C :angry: So i couldn't get accuarately into the 127C - 135C range as recommended.

Pretty much I just let it boil for about 20 min then transfered to cake tin with grease proof paper lining it.

I find mucking around with cake tins a PITA, so I just make it while the wort is boiling and chuck it in.

Have I made Candi Sugar?

Probably sort of.

What is the potential difference in using dark brown sugar?

dark brown sugar is less refined, so it has molasses clinging to the crystals which will add to the flavour.
I wouldn't suggest putting straight molasses in beer though ... urrrk!

It did taste great and when dried on the spoon was very similar to toffee.

Then it will probably be great in beer too!

Will adding this to my intended belgium have a down side?

I don't think so. I think it will be good as long as you are making a dark belgian and not a tripel.

Let us know how it is!

 

[wessmith]

Folks,

Candi or Candii sugar is not the same as "candy" as we know it. This debate on Belgian candii sugar has been going on for close on 10 years as far as I remember - do your searches on AHB, CBA and the good 'ol HBD and you will find a pile of info.

So much misinformation - Jeez....

Wes

 

[braufrau]

Folks,

Candi or Candii sugar is not the same as "candy" as we know it. This debate on Belgian candii sugar has been going on for close on 10 years as far as I remember - do your searches on AHB, CBA and the good 'ol HBD and you will find a pile of info.

So much misinformation - Jeez....

Wes

But did anyone say its was?? :blink:

 

[wessmith]

Yep, by implication that making "toffee" was producing a candi sugar.

Wes

 

[trevc]

So what are the lessons of Duvel? It is apostacy among Oregon brewers to add sugar to a beer. Moortgat doesn't even bother with candi sugar--they throw in regular old sucrose.

From: http://beervana.blogspot.com/2007/08/speak-of-devil.html

For the most part, Duvel is simply made, using Belgian pils malt and some sucrose. Its complexity derives from the yeast usedor, rather, the yeasts.

From: http://www.thebrewhouse.com/resource_center/the_inner.htm (look under Duvel)

I've used sucrose for my latest Golden Strong (always with 1388), and it's the best Belgian I've ever made. The sugar definitely didn't hurt, and who knows... maybe it helped?

 

[braufrau]

Yep, by implication that making "toffee" was producing a candi sugar.

Wes

he said it tasted like toffee .. not that it was toffee!.

So what's your definition of belgian candi?

 

[wabster]

While on this subject I notice the claim that some golden syrup is in fact inverted. I use the plain ole aussie CSR Golden Syrup in some beers and it seems to come out quite well, though I don't add any other adjunct sugars except the main game - malt!

Is aussie golden syrup inverted? Cheerz Wab

 

[kook]

So what's your definition of belgian candi?

Personally, I believe Belgian Candi Sugar is a dark, caramel-like syrup used for colouring and flavour in dark Belgian beers. It's a byproduct of beet sugar processing.

The reason a lot of people associate rock/lump sugar as it was incorrectly marketed in the US as being the stuff used by Belgian brewers. The prices asked for it meant that brewers tried to work out a way to replicate that particular type of sugar being sold as "candi sugar", when it infact was just sugar crystals.

 

[trevc]

Where's beeroclock? I thought he'd be all over this discussion. My golden strong had a kilo of "suga" in it.

I did more Google'ing, and came up with more references stating that Moortgat uses straight sugar.

 

[wessmith]

Very simple Braufrau - crystalline beet sucrose. What has muddied the pond recently has been the introduction of "liquid candii sugar". Now to be a liquid, it has to be invert candii sugar syrup. Otherwise it will crystallise immediately on cooling.

I dont know how the folks in Belgium are inverting the product but I would like to know before using same. CSR have an invert syrup that is acidified with sulphuric acid for inversion then neutralised with caustic soda to produce a balanced pH product. We put some in stock some years back but dumped it - it was horrible. There is a good alternative in using the enzyme invertase to commercially achieve the same result - which of course is what yeast does when it meets sucrose.

Wes

 

[wessmith]

While on this subject I notice the claim that some golden syrup is in fact inverted. I use the plain ole aussie CSR Golden Syrup in some beers and it seems to come out quite well, though I don't add any other adjunct sugars except the main game - malt!

Is aussie golden syrup inverted? Cheerz Wab

About 60%

Wes

 

[braufrau]

Personally, I believe Belgian Candi Sugar is a dark, caramel-like syrup used for colouring and flavour in dark Belgian beers. It's a byproduct of beet sugar processing.

Actually from candy making.
If you see this page linky
its pretty well defined what candi syrup is! How its made.
sugar breakdown, colour, potential gravity etc. etc.

The belgian sugar experimenter on basic brewing radio says he consulted with the importers of those dark candi syrups and was told not to just heat it at about 285F whatever that is in C, for hours and hours.

The reason a lot of people associate rock/lump sugar as it was incorrectly marketed in the US as being the stuff used by Belgian brewers. The prices asked for it meant that brewers tried to work out a way to replicate that particular type of sugar being sold as "candi sugar", when it infact was just sugar crystals.

Yeah, but I think we're all over that .. those lumps are just sucrose. The caramelisation of the darker ones will add some flavour but otherwise .. ordinary old sugar.

 

[kook]

Actually from candy making.
If you see this page linky
its pretty well defined what candi syrup is! How its made.
sugar breakdown, colour, potential gravity etc. etc.

Exactly - beet sugar, not cane sugar. They boil down pure, unrefined beet sugar for ages - and remove the crystals (which are what we would normally consider "sugar" (i.e. granulated).

 

[kook]

Very simple Braufrau - crystalline beet sucrose. What has muddied the pond recently has been the introduction of "liquid candii sugar". Now to be a liquid, it has to be invert candii sugar syrup. Otherwise it will crystallise immediately on cooling.

Now I'm confused - everything I've said above may be incorrect.

I only spoke with a couple brewers in Belgium - but there seemed to be two different products generally used for added fermentables. Plain old beet sugar, or candi syrup (sometimes called caramel). The first was added purely for extra alcohol, second for colour and flavour.

I know De Struisse just use plain old beet sugar, comes in 25? kg sacks. I'll see if I can find pictures of them adding it to the boil for Pannepot. From speaking to someone involved with Alvinne - I know they used candi syrup for darkening and flavour in at least one beer.

Is it the former or the latter product that should actually be referred to as candi sugar / candi syrup ?

 

[trevc]

Aren't beet sugar/cane sugar the exact same thing? (refined from a different source)

 

[wessmith]

Now I'm confused - everything I've said above may be incorrect.

I only spoke with a couple brewers in Belgium - but there seemed to be two different products generally used for added fermentables. Plain old beet sugar, or candi syrup (sometimes called caramel). The first was added purely for extra alcohol, second for colour and flavour.

I know De Struisse just use plain old beet sugar, comes in 25? kg sacks. I'll see if I can find pictures of them adding it to the boil for Pannepot. From speaking to someone involved with Alvinne - I know they used candi syrup for darkening and flavour in at least one beer.

Is it the former or the latter product that should actually be referred to as candi sugar / candi syrup ?

Two different products Kook, Candii sugar is crystalline. Candi syrup probably has been caramelised which in itself will have introduced some level of inversion. Beet sugar is different from cane sugar when we talk about sucrose. The refining process is very different and the resulting product from beet sugar tends to be more nuetral in fermentation in my opinion. Put another way, our Aussie cane sugar introduces a citrusy flavour I do not like. Stricktly my opinion.

Wes

 

[kook]

Two different products Kook, Candii sugar is crystalline. Candi syrup probably has been caramelised which in itself will have introduced some level of inversion. Beet sugar is different from cane sugar when we talk about sucrose. The refining process is very different and the resulting product from beet sugar tends to be more nuetral in fermentation in my opinion. Put another way, our Aussie cane sugar introduces a citrusy flavour I do not like. Stricktly my opinion.

Wes

I'm confused - so the granulated/crystalline plain beet sugar that Struisse for example use, is candi sugar, not the syrup used for colour/flavour by other brewers?

It's annoying that this isn't being explained correctly in books like BLAM (pg 12):

"Theres no i in sugar. Historical references to the use of candi sugar in Trappist breweries beginning in the 1920s dont describe the crystal rocks Americans call Belgian candi sugar, but most often a dark caramel syrup."

 

[kook]

Aren't beet sugar/cane sugar the exact same thing? (refined from a different source)

Nope - they have a different percentage of fructose / glucose.

edit: (when they're inverted).

edit again: Ignore above - I'm mistaken.

 

[braufrau]

Nope - they have a different percentage of fructose / glucose.

They are both almost 100% sucrose. They differ in teeny tiny amounts of impurities such as protein.
wikipedia

From the dark candi website we can see that the syrup is ~40% water, 30% sucrose, 15% fructocse and 15% glucose. i.e. it is 50% inverted. The different syrups they sell have different degrees of caramalisation.

 

[kook]

They are both almost 100% sucrose. They differ in teeny tiny amounts of impurities such as protein.
wikipedia

Don't those proteins then influence the way that the sugar is broken down by the yeast?

edit- Ignore above - I'm mistaken.