Help Support Aussie Homebrewer by donating using the link above.
  1. Brewer's Friend is having an open giveaway, ends soon, so enter now!

    Click Here to Enter Now!
    Dismiss Notice

Belgian Candi Sugar - CONFUSED!!

Discussion in 'General Brewing Techniques' started by steveski, 4/10/18.

 

  1. steveski

    New Member

    Joined:
    20/10/16
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted 4/10/18
    I've been reading about making some Belgian Candi Sugar for a Piraat (Belgian Tripel) recipe I want to make and finding some inconsistencies about the techniques.
    People talk about using citric acid and this is backed up in this invert sugar article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup and says cream of tartar is fine as well. I foudn mention that if you want clear BCS then just drop table sugar in the boil kettle and that heat will do the conversion... BUT the lowest temperature I've seen listed for triggering the conversion is 240°F (115°C) which won't be achievable. Stove top cooked sugar can reach these high temps though.

    So I found this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/the-how-to-for-making-belgian-candi-sugar.219960/ which leads to a PDF published by Beer Brewing Radio which states using Diamonium Phosphate which when I search online is described as a fertiliser but also is used as a Yeast Nutrient. Reading about it as a fertiliser I can see that there's an increase in pH over time, but how does it compare with the acidic levels of Citric acid or cream of tartar.

    Can anyone say difinitively which one I should use? I have cream of tartar in the pantry, but I'm not sure how much to use, the Beer Brewing Radio PDF says to use 1/2 tsp of DAP with 1 cup water and 2 lbs sugar, but how much cream of tartar of citric acid does that translate to? Is it worth just buy some Yeast Nutrient and follow this recipe to the letter?
     
  2. Redreuben

    Member

    Joined:
    5/10/18
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Fremantle WA
    Posted 10/10/18 at 12:17 PM
    Here’s what I did.
    I went to the confectioners down the shops, you know the ones who knead and roll the sugar in front of you on the big flat plate.
    Yes they cook it up in a pot first.
    Anyway I told him I wanted a kilo the colour of pee and a kilo the colour of weak tea.
    He gave them to me.
    So I made a triple and a double and gave him a couple of bottles of each and everyone was happy !
     
  3. sp0rk

    Mayor of Pooptown

    Joined:
    13/2/11
    Messages:
    3,893
    Likes Received:
    932
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Muswellbrook
    Posted 10/10/18 at 12:43 PM
    It's worth buying the nutrient IMHO
    http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html?m=1
    If you're just making clear syrup that you'll need for Piraat, then maybe even thing about getting the Wyeast Nutrient instead of DAP (for reasons in the above link)
    However if you're wanting to make darker syrups at some point, DAP and white sugar won't make it (again, reasons in the above link)
     
  4. chthon

    Member

    Joined:
    29/8/18
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgium
    Posted 10/10/18 at 2:40 PM
    Steveski actually asked this also on homebrew stackexchange, and received a fantastic reply: https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/23515/belgian-candi-sugar-confused.

    I also regularly make invert syrup, and regularly search for recipes, but this one I hadn't encountered yet. It is basically what I normally do (not much water and citric or tartaric acid for the invert reaction), but adding some source of amino acids (nutrient or DME), and then increasing the pH after the invert reaction has gone through.

    Also, DAP is diammoniumphosphate. This does not contain a trace of amino acids. Someone in the past probably thought that because DAP is used as a yeast nutrient, it is the same as Wyeast Yeast Nutrient. But Wyeasts nutrient is actually dead yeast + DAP.
     
  5. gap

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    13/9/07
    Messages:
    801
    Likes Received:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 11/10/18 at 12:18 AM
    If you want to use Dark Candi Syrup you are best off buying the real thing.
    It has much more complexity and flavour than any you may to try to make yourself.
     
    MHB and sp0rk like this.
  6. scomet

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4/5/08
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    31
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mandurah WA
    Posted 14/10/18 at 2:30 AM
    Hello steveski, I have based my invert sugar on the many articles that 'Barclay Perkins' has written on the subject over the years. If a recipe says sugar and boil you can ignore it!! The type of sugar, temperature and time are the keys to making a good brewing sugar imho. It mustn't caramelise, if it does your finished beer will taste completely different, I used to get mine too hot. Like many folks here I have lots of thermometers. I make clear through to black and it takes from 1 to 4 hours you have to adjust the heat input continually (down) as the water boils off or you’ll go from Maillard to Caramelisation in a blink - Dont do it with the kids around that s*t is nasty hot. I put the finished sugar in glass storage jars with a 50% head space it can get quite hard, I soften it with wort during the the mash. ps it can foam like f* when you start heating please be careful and dont use a full pan to start….

    http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html
     
  7. altone

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4/6/09
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Kept man
    Location:
    Melbourne's East
    Posted 14/10/18 at 3:38 AM
    Do you use Calcium Hydroxide/Pickling lime @scomet ?
    I've only done the normal candy method with acid and yeast nutrient but long and low like you suggest to avoid caramelisation.
    If you do use it how much do you add?
     
  8. goatchop41

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27/10/14
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bendigo (Vic)
    Posted 14/10/18 at 5:10 AM
    @steveski have a read of this post by a reddit user. It is a great starting off point. It's safe to say that 95% of the recipes on the internet for candi sugar are completely wrong, and just make brewers invert. The one that @sp0rk posted is closer, but the guy's explanations are a bit off. The reddit post also has a couple of other good links - one to a blog with a recipe and process, another to a powerpoint on the subject with recipes.

    Essentially, you add acid to lower the pH and allow the inversion of the sugar. Next, you need to add amino acids AND make the mixture alkaline. Others have mentioned adding amino acids (DAP isn't perfect for this, but will do. DME is better, and you likely already have it!), but the making the mixture alkaline is really important for authentic candi sugar.
    This is because the flavours in Belgian candi sugar come from maillard reactions, not caramelisation, and the speed that those reactions occur is based on the pH of the mixture. If you just add amino acids to an acidic inverted sugar mixture, the maillard reactions will take hours upon hours (or may not even happen, if the pH is low enough). Add something like lye to increase the pH enough, and the maillard reactions will occur in minutes, with caramelisation even being inhibited by a high enough pH.
     
  9. altone

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4/6/09
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Kept man
    Location:
    Melbourne's East
    Posted 14/10/18 at 5:41 AM
    Do you have a method goatchop41 ?

    I'm a bit worried about the amount of Calcium Hydroxide (Slaked lime/Pickling lime) to add.
    I'd be using Jaggery for sugar instead of refined sugar as it has a lot of those amino acids without additions.
    I'd still add a bit of DME to be sure though.
     
  10. scomet

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    4/5/08
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    31
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mandurah WA
    Posted 14/10/18 at 9:16 AM
    Interesting post from goatchop41 I will have a good look at that, guess I'm just making brewers invert, simple recipe, 1kg RAW sugar 1litre water 1tsp liquid lactic acid and keep the temp lower than 240F it does take hours!! I have seen lots of alternatives using treacle, backstrap? and the others mentioned above - I just keep it simple and slow.... makes fabulous beer :-}
     
  11. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    2,435
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 14/10/18 at 11:51 AM
    This same discussion keeps being had about once a year for the decade or I have been on AHB.
    Good to see a few people getting the idea that there is a wealth of difference between Invert Sugar and Candi Sugar (solid or syrup).
    Invert is simply Sucrose split into Glucose and Fructose, yeast is quite capable of doing this itself, by producing the enzyme Invertase. There is no point in making invert to feed to yeast, if you caramelise it to add colour/flavour (this is what Golden Syrup and Treacle are) that's a different conversation.
    But and its a serious but, this isn't and never will be Belgian Candi or any other sort of candi for that matter.

    Candi Sugar is made from the juice of Sugar Beet (Beet Sugar), think of starting with Sugar Cane Juice and you would be a lot closer than trying to get there with refined (or even semi refined - raw sugar). Juice contains hundreds (perhaps thousands) of compounds other than just Sucrose, important among these are organic acids, proteins, vitamins, mineral salts....
    Controlled heating and concentration will cause lots of reactions, including Inversion, but most significantly Maillard Reactions (condensations between Sugars and Amino acids) there are the typical darkening reactions in everything from making Roast Barley, even coffee, toast... almost all form of cooking really.

    The two big differences between Invert Syrup and Candi are Complexity and Price. No doubt about it Candi costs a lot more, but if you match it against an equivalent Invert it tastes a hell of a lot better - and frankly those are your choices.
    Mark

    I just wish people would quit calling Invert, Belgian Candi it isn't, call it what it is "Invert Sugar"
    Mark
     
  12. The Ferment Horizon

    Member

    Joined:
    27/12/16
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    1
    Posted 14/10/18 at 1:38 PM
    I've had a few goes at doing this.
    Another hot tip I've found, that I haven't seen anyone else try; is to add a small amount of fruit rich in Anthocyanin. Anything with a reddish to blue black colour will work. A handful of blueberries works fine. Figs add awesome flavours, but contain a fair bit of pectin.
    At any rate, anthocyanin works as a pH indicator. As soon as you hit a pH of 7 and above (the mallard reactions you want range from a bit over 7 to 9.)
    The mixture will turn green. It's full on.
    Within minutes though, the mixture will then go from green to reddish amber. This is where the flavours really start to come through. I usually heat for another 30-45 minutes from here, or until I am happy with the taste.

    Also, another hot tip is to dip strawberries in the mix and let cool. It's a very decadent way of sampling the mixture as it progresses. haha.
     
  13. Leyther

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    28/11/16
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    102
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 14/10/18 at 11:26 PM
    I had a go at making invert sugar yesterday, unfortunately I don't have a thermometer that goes over 100C so I couldn't get accurate temp, I followed the instructions on the web but I ended up with almost clear liquid after about 45m, I also checked the PH and it was 1.9, nowhere near the 7-9 quoted above. I ended up using half this and half golden syrup in the brew I was making.

    My recipe was just white cane sugar, water and a drop of citric acid. Any idea where I went wrong? did I perhaps not leave it long enough or maybe didn't get the temp high enough?
     
  14. sp0rk

    Mayor of Pooptown

    Joined:
    13/2/11
    Messages:
    3,893
    Likes Received:
    932
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Muswellbrook
    Posted 15/10/18 at 12:48 AM
    I'm sure I saw you post a few years ago about wanting to get some fresh cane juice from a mill to give making candi syrup with that a go
    Did you ever get a chance to do that?
    I may be heading up to Ballina for xmas, so I was thinking about contacting some old schoolmates that still live up there and farm sugar cane to see if they can help me source a cube or 2
     
  15. Redreuben

    Member

    Joined:
    5/10/18
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Fremantle WA
    Posted 15/10/18 at 12:57 AM
    I guess my candy maker just made me invert hard crac then.
    So next question is, how authentic is the stuff being flogged by home brew shops ?
    Is it the fully imported from Belgium the genuine article?
     
  16. sp0rk

    Mayor of Pooptown

    Joined:
    13/2/11
    Messages:
    3,893
    Likes Received:
    932
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Muswellbrook
    Posted 15/10/18 at 1:21 AM
    I believe Dark Candi Inc are Belgian and use pure beet sugar (which I believe is from France & Germany)
    Candi Syrup Inc are American and use US beets (they also go on about GMO bullshit in their FAQ...)
    Candico are Belgian (NFI on source of beet sugar)

    I'm pretty sure most of the stuff you get in Australia is sourced from Dark Candi Inc
     
    MHB likes this.
  17. shacked

    I like beer

    Joined:
    7/5/14
    Messages:
    1,584
    Likes Received:
    644
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 15/10/18 at 2:16 AM
    I recently did a candi syrup experiment where I brewed 4 identical beers (same wort, same yeast) with the only variable being about 15% Candi syrup in each batch (clear, amber, dark 1) plus a control beer (no syrup).

    The clear candi syrup beer provided a lighter body than the control and was far more drinkable despite being 2% ABV higher! The amber adds a honey like finish in the beer and the dark 1 was more like a golden syrup type flavor. All the candi syrup came from @Brewman_ and was worth the extra expense to get the real deal.
     
    Samuel Adams and MHB like this.
  18. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,085
    Likes Received:
    2,435
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 15/10/18 at 2:53 AM
    Cant speak for other stores but I know what my local (Brewman) stocks (having helped get it into bottles) and yes its the genuine article.
    Worth noticing that he has solid sugars as well as the syrups, these are available by the gram, either on the website or as part of a recipe in BrewBuilder.
    Mark
    upload_2018-10-15_12-52-53.png
     
    sp0rk likes this.
  19. goatchop41

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27/10/14
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    169
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bendigo (Vic)
    Posted 15/10/18 at 9:09 AM
    That pH is ok for invert. You only need the high pH for candi sugar, in order to encourage the maillard reactions. I believe that the low pH of invert sugar encourages caramelisation, which I would deduce is where the darker inverts would get their flavours from.
    If you want to make it, just get a candy thermometer. They are as cheap as chips. Your temp would have been the problem
     
  20. ABG

    Member

    Joined:
    26/5/18
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sydney
    Posted 15/10/18 at 12:44 PM

Share This Page