Braumeister vs 3V: pros and cons

[dicko]

Well!!

After TP's post I will have to sell my 20 litre BM as it must be no good.

Unfortunately, most of the arguments against are purely cost related and most will agree that a BM is expensive if you choose to compare it with a 30$ stovetop brewery or a simple BIAB system.

A new person entering this hobby today does have a multitude of choices with equipment that was not available ten or fifteen years ago.so at that time everything had to be made to suit or equipment had to be other items that were adapted for use in the home brewery.

There are not many people that actually add up ALL the costs when building a brewery.
I know that if I had my time over again and with what I know now with regards to cost, time, and just the inconvenience of a 3v system, I would not hesitate to spend the money on a BM.

Another thing I don't understand is your comment T P regarding the limitations of the 20 litre model. In comparison to what?? And what limitations?

Like many BM owners I had previously built a 3 v with a herms and while it was a lot of fun to build it was a pita to operate with all the hoses, switches, pump and fittings to attend to on brew day.
From my observation, most people are " time poor" these days and for that reason if nothing else is even taken into consideration then the decision to purchase and operate a BM is a " no brainer" if brewing at home is what you want to do.

Having said all that I strongly believe that all the types of equipment available to the home brewer will make good beer in the right hands but a really great beer will need the attention to detail on the "cold side" of the process.

Go buy a fresh wort kit and then ferment it with the incorrect yeast or ferment it in a less than sanitary fermenter or without adequate and reasonable temperature control or bottle and carbonate it incorrectly and you still will have beer but it may not bee good beer.

So to the OP who bought the clone BM, make the best wort you can on your new equipment and once it is made then think about how you will turn it from wort into a great beer.

 

[mje1980]

But you can make the same beer constantly.

On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
Oh and don't tell me you can brew the same beer every time, I know you can't and so do you.

Batz

I'd love a bm but in all honesty if I make 10 batches of the same bitter or mild or whatever with the same grist and hops, if there are slight differences between batches it doesn't bother me at all. In fact by the time I'm drinking the next one I won't remember the first well enough to compare.

In any AG, regardless of how many vessels or buttons or pumps, it's possible to improve your knowledge of the process and your beers.

 

[Batz]

I'd love a bm but in all honesty if I make 10 batches of the same bitter or mild or whatever with the same grist and hops, if there are slight differences between batches it doesn't bother me at all. In fact by the time I'm drinking the next one I won't remember the first well enough to compare.

I guess I'm a bit too fussy about my beers, every beer I brew I write tasting notes on my brew sheet, the next time I'll read these and make adjustments if necessary.
I want the best possible beer that I can brew, if I can not replicate a brew exactly it's imposable to make minor adjustments.
I realize that most brewers are just happy to turn out a good beer, I'm always striving to brew a better beer.

Batz

Batz

 

[mje1980]

I must admit, I rarely brew the same batch exactly. It could be the greatest beer ever, but by the time I brew it again I'll tweak this or that slightly. I like slight differences. I mostly brew uk ales and Belgians so there is plenty of room for movement in those beers. Like funky beers too but damned if I know how to replicate those beers, no matter how many notes I keep.

Still want a BM one day though .

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

A read a load of threads here, the biab forum and aha before buying a BM and I think the answer is maybe. It really depends on what 'simple' means to you. If you can pump the wort through the grain bed relatively slowly whilst maintaining mash temperature you should clarify the wort. Whether that makes the final beer from your bottle or keg clearer, seems to depend on who you ask. I reckon it does, but not so much that it makes any difference to the clarity of the final beer as I routinely use gelatin anyway and just increase the dose if I need to.

Well its not so much clarity I'm concerned with but more so a recipe is like to do frequently as I love it. A chestnut pilsner using fresh meal (not roasted) in the mash. There are nut oils which carry over and I'd like to try filter them out with the grain bed.

So getting a BM is not viable just for that reason, which is why I'm thinking an esky mash tun (or any additional vessel mash tun) and a pump is the most straight forward thing that springs to mind which would also allow me to do two brews in a day and not take 12 hours. So there is added flexibility from that.

Could I simply mash out, then drain the mash keggle with bag and grains remaining in the keggle and wort into buckets then pour that back over the grain carefully (maybe even through a small hose to not channel/disturb the "bed") and let it drain some more, then repeat until I notice some clarity from doing so, hoist the bag and return the wort to the keggle and proceed as normal? Obviously some heat loss but if ive mashed put there shouldnt be any ill effects other than a bit more time getting to boil?

 

[idzy]

Flames are out.

85 posts and nearly 85 opinions

 

[fraser_john]

I see the benefits of both, I really like the idea of a single vessel, but what I don't understand is the 3V statements of cleaning is a bitch and all the hoses a pain.

Cleaning is simple, clean in place no moving stuff around. The only thing I have to "move" is my kettle to the sink to wash it, everything else stays exactly where it is. I use my ramp/soak PID to heat cleaning water (caustic or percarbonate or tricleanium) then recirc through the CFC back into mash tun and then rinse with a citric acid wash, easy.

Hoses? If the 3V is built right there should only be one hose to move, that which recircs back into the mash being moved to the kettle to start the wort transfer. Same hose for connecting to CFC during cleaning phase.

Not hard at all? Or am I missing something?

I get a 3V brew day with a 90 minute boil done in 5 hours INCLUDING cleaning. And that time would be faster if I had of installed a damn 20A outlet in the brewery instead of having to fall back to 10A for everything :'(

 

[Goose]

But you can make the same beer constantly.

On my 3V this was almost imposable, it's very difficult to improve a beer if you can't have a start point. Now I can reproduce a beer that I have brewed that will be exactly the same.
To newer brewers this perhaps does not sound important, but it will.
Oh and don't tell me you can brew the same beer every time, I know you can't and so do you.

Batz

Are you sure about that Batzy

I don't see why you cant achieve consistency with 3V with RIMS if you have accurate and precise measurement and control. For consistency and repeatability, surely the answer is just to eliminate the variables ?

For example the SABCO 3V RIMS system lays its reputation on repeatability. There are plenty of homebuilt examples with satisfactory controls that achieve the same.

 

[Goose]

To add, don't get me wrong, I think the BM is an awesome piece of kit if it fits your purpose.

One distinct disadvantage of the BM is the fact you cant mash in a second batch while you are boiling your first, so if you want to do 2 or three batches in a day I am thinking it would take a lot longer with a single BM unit. Yeah you can have two of course... B)

Other disadvantages I see, for 50L systems and above, you need two people or a pulley system for breaking the suction and lifting out the malt pipe, it doesn't have a gas option if the cost per kwh for electricity is extortionate like it is where I am, you probably need a separate HLT or hot water source for sparging, you cant brew big beers with all grain and in a lot of places you'd probably need to mortgage your houses to get the high amp circuit installed so you can run the thing.

A BM is not for everybody and not for me.

 

[sponge]

I like the idea of a single vessel, but love the amount of tweaking you can do on a 3V system, and love that you can say you designed it (especially once you get into control panels, etc).

It's easy enough (IMO) to get repeatability on any system, as long as you know your system well. Granted, a BM would make this learning process much faster and allow for more repeatable beers in a shorterspace of time.

The space savings are a massive thumbs up for a BM, but I'm happy enough taking up half a wall for my brewrig. Hell, I take up more space with grain/fermenting fridge/cubes/kegs/etc than I do with my brewrig, so I'm not too concerned about the space my brewrig takes up.

 

[bradsbrew]

I started out with a dodgy little esky and one of the pots in the kitchen to make a partial not long after finding the Grumpy's forum. I then moved on to a bit bigger dodgy esky and keggle with a 3 ring burner, then onto a dodgy 3V that included a lot of lifting etc. Heaps of alterations over the years to know having a dual pumped 3V that is capable of 120L at a time. I have enjoyed every step of the process but it is getting close to the time that I will buy a 50L BM. Will be money well spent.


Cheers

 

[Goose]

I started out with a dodgy little esky and one of the pots in the kitchen to make a partial not long after finding the Grumpy's forum. I then moved on to a bit bigger dodgy esky and keggle with a 3 ring burner, then onto a dodgy 3V that included a lot of lifting etc. Heaps of alterations over the years to know having a dual pumped 3V that is capable of 120L at a time. I have enjoyed every step of the process but it is getting close to the time that I will buy a 50L BM. Will be money well spent.


Cheers

back to heavy lifting to break that suction ?

 

[bradsbrew]

back to heavy lifting to break that suction ?

Already thought of that. $100 should get me a suitable electric winch.

 

[Batz]

Are you sure about that Batzy

I don't see why you cant achieve consistency with 3V with RIMS if you have accurate and precise measurement and control. For consistency and repeatability, surely the answer is just to eliminate the variables ?

For example the SABCO 3V RIMS system lays its reputation on repeatability. There are plenty of homebuilt examples with satisfactory controls that achieve the same.

Well I had trouble on my 3V and I brewed on that for years. I would brew the same brew and it was great, but it was always just that little a different each time.
On my old system I had to dial up my mash temperatures manually, I also used a timer for the steps.

Just me and my old brewery I guess. Of course this is with the same hops etc before we go back into that old song.

Batz

 

[Batz]

To add, don't get me wrong, I think the BM is an awesome piece of kit if it fits your purpose.

One distinct disadvantage of the BM is the fact you cant mash in a second batch while you are boiling your first, so if you want to do 2 or three batches in a day I am thinking it would take a lot longer with a single BM unit. Yeah you can have two of course... B)

Other disadvantages I see, for 50L systems and above, you need two people or a pulley system for breaking the suction and lifting out the malt pipe,

Yes true, but while your BM is mashing you do have plenty of time to do other things

A pulley for the 50lt, yes I need one at my age. Rope pulley cost me around $15.00, not a biggie when your building a brewery no matter what it is.

A BM is not for everybody and not for me.

Totally agree with this as well.

Cheers
Batz

 

[Goose]

Yes true, but while your BM is mashing you do have plenty of time to do other things

A pulley for the 50lt, yes I need one at my age. Rope pulley cost me around $15.00, not a biggie when your building a brewery no matter what it is.


Totally agree with this as well.

Cheers
Batz

Only 58? still young....

 

[Batz]

Only 58? still young....

Yes, just a possum mate, doesn't take me any longer that 15mins to do a quarter of an hours work.

Batz

 

[MastersBrewery]

The stand for my clone has included crane arm and lifting winch, though my large malt pipe is good for a standard 80L batch :blink: and my shoulders are crap.
Large malt pipe usable volume is 51L
Small malt pipe usable volume is 32L
I aint lifting either

MB

 

[carniebrew]

I've tried to read as much of this topic as I can, with limited time to do so! So sorry if I've missed the answers to my questions somewhere along the way...

I'm thinking of buying a BM, but with most of my brews will only do enough to fill a 19l corny. And I rarely brew beers above 6.5% at that volume, 'coz I just don't drink enough of them. If I'm doing a BIG beer, I'd more likely do a small (~12l) batch and bottle it. So, two questions:

1. If I buy a 50l BM & the short malt pipe, is it any harder to regularly do 20l batch brews in it, than it would be to do that size with a 20l BM? Sorry if this seems an obvious question, but I'm just wondering if there's any kind of "minimum" batch you need to do in a 50l BM, given all the pumps/electrics etc?

2. With a 20l BM, I keep hearing that big high gravity brews are an issue. Is this purely because people are trying to brew a full batch size of these big beers? For example, if I want to brew a 1.090 OG beer in a 10 litre batch, is this quite doable in a 20l BM?

 

[Batz]

I've tried to read as much of this topic as I can, with limited time to do so! So sorry if I've missed the answers to my questions somewhere along the way...

I'm thinking of buying a BM, but with most of my brews will only do enough to fill a 19l corny. And I rarely brew beers above 6.5% at that volume, 'coz I just don't drink enough of them. If I'm doing a BIG beer, I'd more likely do a small (~12l) batch and bottle it. So, two questions:

1. If I buy a 50l BM & the short malt pipe, is it any harder to regularly do 20l batch brews in it, than it would be to do that size with a 20l BM? Sorry if this seems an obvious question, but I'm just wondering if there's any kind of "minimum" batch you need to do in a 50l BM, given all the pumps/electrics etc?

2. With a 20l BM, I keep hearing that big high gravity brews are an issue. Is this purely because people are trying to brew a full batch size of these big beers? For example, if I want to brew a 1.090 OG beer in a 10 litre batch, is this quite doable in a 20l BM?

If your happy to brew for one 19lt keg, go the 20lt.
I have a 20lt malt pipe and rarely use it, it's only for specialty beers. I don't often brew big beers but if I do they are normally Belgium's, then I add candy sugar like most others.
If you brew ship loads of high alcohol beers the BM is possibility not for you.

Batz