Braumeister vs 3V: pros and cons

[Tahoose]

Hmm yeah, I'd at least chuck in a mash out if I had a BM, I mean, your going to be working up to the boil anyway...

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I've had great results adding a mash out to my BIAB process. Just make sure I stir the mash when heating on gas and haven't had a drama yet. Biggest pain if I had to do multiple steps would be having to remove and put back the insulating towels at each rest point. Thats one for the first world problems thread...

Going to try a decoction mash next month, if its painful it will only hurry my desire to go recirc BIAB, BM or 3V :O

 

[mje1980]

Decoction will be a pain regardless of how many vessels, pumps or buttons you have

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Really? Going OT now but is it not simply scooping out mash to another pot/stove and boiling it then returning an amount to reach next step temp?

 

[carniebrew]

Hmm yeah, I'd at least chuck in a mash out if I had a BM, I mean, your going to be working up to the boil anyway...

Actually I think he manually did a mash out IIRC, thanks for the reminder.

 

[mje1980]

Well, yes, but it's messy, takes a while to boil, then you wonder if you've scooped enough grain and not too much water, then you have to boil it without scorching it, then you have to guess how much to add back in. It's definately do able but it takes time and you need to watch it.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Wish me luck then!!! ;-)

 

[matt211181]

I built my own 3V with HERMS (so 4V really) with separate PID controllers to control the HEX and HLT, etc .....I love the control and I can brew pretty much anything on it..... BUT.....I'm still finding myself considering switching to a Braumeister (or DIY clone)!...... the reason being I'm finding myself increasingly 'time-poor' with 2 kids under 2, and while my rig does allow great control of mash temps - the rig does need to be 'nursed' with manually switching valves to get liquid from vessel to vessel, controlling pump flow at the start of recirculation, timing mash steps (I could have installed programmable PIDs - but I didn't.....)

The prospect of tipping in some malt, stirring, pressing 1 button and walking away for a few hours sounds awesome (right now for my current 'time-poor' situation)......some of the extended overnight Braumeister mash schedules I've read about sound even better for freeing up time....

The only limitation I can really think of is due to the 5.5kg (approximately?) maximum grain bill in the 20L Braumeister malt tube......with an extraction efficiency of about 80%, and an end-of-boil volume of 25L, this would limit the OG to about 1.054 (without topping up with extract).......I guess I could always keep the 3V HERMS for the odd bigger brew....

 

[Goose]

As luck would have it, I went to a brew day yesterday with two other home-brewers (I've brewed with these guys a few times over the last 12-18 months). We did 3 beers concurrently (a RIS, Hefe & a Saison). One of the guys (not on this forum) brings his 20 litre BM, so as you can imagine I was all over his system like a rash.

What I found really interesting though is that he doesn't use any of the BM's programmable mash temp features, basically just puts the BM in manual mode, heats his water to strike temp, then puts in the malt pipe and pours the grain. He tells me he always does it this way, i.e. a single infusion mash.

He also doesn't bother sparging at all, just pulls the malt pipe at the end of the mash, and lets it drain back into the BM. He gets around 65% efficiency, and simply adjusts his grain bill to work with that. Once the grain is out he manually sets it to boil temp, and when it beeps to say it's there, hop additions start.

Now what struck me the most about all of this is his process doesn't really seem to do much that BIAB doesn't already do? I know this is just the way he does it, but I just found it interesting. If you don't need/want a step mash, what is it the BM is doing to make brew day so much simpler/better than a BIAB process? I was surprised his efficiency was the same as mine (I currently BIAB), given the BM pumps all that water around during the mash, I would have thought that'd increase efficiency significantly.

I'm still very keen on a BM, don't get me wrong. But it was a bit of an eye opener, I have to admit. Oh, and of course this thread is about 3V vs BM, so apologies that it's off topic. I'll go looking for some BM v BIAB threads to see what I'm missing.

His process differs from BIAB in that the BM is a RIMS system however it really does intrigue me how some BM guys claim get 85% efficiency out of these things... I'd have though you have to sparge to achieve that ?

 

[adraine]

So with all of this talk of OG topping out at around 1.055 my question is if you were to buy a 50l BM and were happy to take a lower yield could you do a higher gravity beer? what are the limitations? Physical capacity?

 

[Blind Dog]

Around page 11 of the Braumeister Tips & Tricks thread mikk posts 3 recipes brewed to an og of 1.100 or thereabouts in a BM by doing a double mash. Its more work, but appears to be relatively simple (I've not yet done it, but plan on trying one day). there's others doing similar throughout that thread and in others.

Also, I doubt 1.055 is the upper limit in normal single mash use. The last IPA I brewed was 1.054 pre-boil and there was probably room to go if i'd wanted to push it a bit further

 

[Tahoose]

Somebody did mention a couple of pages ago in this thread referencing the shorter malt pipe on a 20l system and higher OG brews.

 

[dicko]

I built my own 3V with HERMS (so 4V really) with separate PID controllers to control the HEX and HLT, etc .....I love the control and I can brew pretty much anything on it..... BUT.....I'm still finding myself considering switching to a Braumeister (or DIY clone)!...... the reason being I'm finding myself increasingly 'time-poor' with 2 kids under 2, and while my rig does allow great control of mash temps - the rig does need to be 'nursed' with manually switching valves to get liquid from vessel to vessel, controlling pump flow at the start of recirculation, timing mash steps (I could have installed programmable PIDs - but I didn't.....)

The prospect of tipping in some malt, stirring, pressing 1 button and walking away for a few hours sounds awesome (right now for my current 'time-poor' situation)......some of the extended overnight Braumeister mash schedules I've read about sound even better for freeing up time....

The only limitation I can really think of is due to the 5.5kg (approximately?) maximum grain bill in the 20L Braumeister malt tube......with an extraction efficiency of about 80%, and an end-of-boil volume of 25L, this would limit the OG to about 1.054 (without topping up with extract).......I guess I could always keep the 3V HERMS for the odd bigger brew....

His process differs from BIAB in that the BM is a RIMS system however it really does intrigue me how some BM guys claim get 85% efficiency out of these things... I'd have though you have to sparge to achieve that ?

1065 is achieved reasonably easily on the 20 BM at a final volume of 21 litres and a grain bill of 6 kg which is around the maximum amount you can fit into the malt pipe without turning the top plate over.

If you steep any crystals and roasts separately and turn the top plate over I have calculated that you could achieve 1075 without any extra work depending on the recipe. Then if you need a bigger beer you may add an extract or just boil to a lesser volume.

The guy that is using his BM manually may be happy with his process but he is not using his equipment to its full potential.

80% efficiency is easily achieved with a dough in volume of 25 litres and a small mini sparge of the remaining water needed for the brew. I have personally found that a mash out at 77 deg held for around 20 minutes increases efficiency. If you hold it for a longer period it improves efficiency again.

If you are going to assess the advantages of a BM I would suggest that you view someone using one at its full potential.

 

[Blind Dog]

Checked my notes last night and my IPA with pre-boil 1.054 ended up as 20l at 1.062 into the fermenter. That was using just over 5.5kg of grain and, by my calc was about 75% efficiency into the fermenter, but don't quote me as I don't get too hung up on efficiency.

 

[Blind Dog]

If you steep any crystals and roasts separately and turn the top plate over I have calculated that you could achieve 1075 without any extra work depending on the recipe.

You, sir, are a genius.

 

[matt211181]

If you steep any crystals and roasts separately .....

Thanks for that great tip Dicko. I had never thought of that. I'm getting closer and closer to throwing a sheet over the 3V rig and taking the Braumeister plunge....

 

[McFeast]

20l BM Question - what's the maximum batch size you can get on it? Is it only 25l?
With 5.5kg grain bill?
I'm wanting to get as close to filling a 50l keg as I can with a BM was wondering if I could skint on the 50l BM. I'd consider double batches on a 20L if it was feasible.

 

[danestead]

20l BM Question - what's the maximum batch size you can get on it? Is it only 25l?
With 5.5kg grain bill?
I'm wanting to get as close to filling a 50l keg as I can with a BM was wondering if I could skint on the 50l BM. I'd consider double batches on a 20L if it was feasible.

Ive produced 30L post boil. The preboil volume was pretty close to ful. Im not sure you would fit many more litres in there.

As for max grain, Ive done 6kg a few times. Its pretty much full at 6kg so if im looking at a bigger beer I would add DME or sugars to bump it up. At 6kg of grain, my efficiency drops off 2-4% compared to a normal 5kg grain bill.

 

[McFeast]

Thanks Dane.


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