Braumeister NEXTGEN Build

[Malted]

Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter,

:icon_offtopic:
G'day Steve, just out of curiosity, what fermentation vessell do you use for fermenting 10L or wort? I would have thought ye old stock 30L FV could have too much headspace?

Perhaps with smaller FV's one could fit more of them in ones fermentation fridge (It is a line of thought I have been pondering).

 

[angus_grant]

those figures I quoted in the PDF were conservative estimates, in the braumiser I went for a pot that gave me about 7.5l 'mash tun' capacity. Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, that is with 2.5kg of grain. What I have found with my system is that extract efficiency drops off rapidly as the grain bill increase, at 2kg of grain I can expect 80%+ extract at 2.5kg that has dropped to about 72%. If you can, go larger because it will give you more flexibility with the grain bill, your figures look good at glance, without knowing the exact dimensions of the pots. With a 19l pot you could probably squeeze over 5kg into it but the flow and efficiency will suffer.

cheers steve

25L
Diameter 320mm
Height 320mm

71L
Diameter 450mm
Height 452mm

And in the spirit of sharing, I have done up an Excel spreadsheet which uses Matho's calculations to produce volumes, grain bills, minimum water volumes, etc, etc (mmm, so much pie)

View attachment Braumiser_Volume_Calculations.xls
The first worksheet calculates out using a 19L malt pipe and a 50L main vessel.
The second worksheet calculates out using a 25L malt pipe and a 71L main vessel.

Matho, maybe you could look over this spreadsheet for correctness? The first worksheet has around the same values as your pdf, if you are willing to forgive rounding issues.

I figure that I will go for the 25L malt pipe + 71L main vessel. Go as big as I can now as it will make the system a bit more capable for bigger beers and will also work as close as I can afford to the efficient ratios. I do wonder a bit if the minimum water volume is a bit close to my actual boil volume, so that may reduce the amount of sparging I can do.

Can you sparge with the wort instead of new water? Would that achieve anything? If you have more water during mash, does that mean sugars dissolve into the water (avoiding saturation point) and reduces the need for sparging

 

[MastersBrewery]

I don't understand why your not keeping the same Main vessel of 50l, it's obviously not going to impede boil size, the larger 70l would require more energy to heat and maintain boil, not to mention increased evaporation losses. just my 2c, I'd prolly look at 25l malt pipe with 50l main vessel

 

[matho]

the spread sheet looks awesome angus, you are right about the volume getting high with the 25,71 combination you still want some water to sparge with.

you could always go with what Mastersbrewery said or you could go down the path that Dmac suggested, that is buy 2 19l pots and stack them to give you the extra height when you need it, I think that is a great idea because the price of those pots its not going to cost you much and gives you a variable height for larger grain bills. Masterbrewery's idea would work too with a 32 cm diameter malt pipe and about a 40cm pot will leave 4 cm around the malt pipe which is more than enough to fit in the element (I have 3.5cm around my malt pipe).

cheers steve

 

[angus_grant]

The handles make the 25L pot wider than the 50L pot and I was trying to keep the handles to use as lifting points for removing the malt pipe.

But more importantly, if using 25L malt pipe and 50L main vessel there is only 40mm around the malt pipe in the main vessel for fitting in the plumbing and heating element.

Diameter of 25L pot = 320 (at the bottom of the pot)
Diameter of 50L pot = 400 (at the bottom of the pot)
Diameter of 71L pot = 450 (at the bottom of the pot)

So with the 71L pot I would have 650mm each side of the 25L malt pipe for heating and plumbing.

Would it be possible to fit in the heating element plus valve outlet for tap, pump inlet into 40mm of space?

 

[matho]

:icon_offtopic:
G'day Steve, just out of curiosity, what fermentation vessell do you use for fermenting 10L or wort? I would have thought ye old stock 30L FV could have too much headspace?

Perhaps with smaller FV's one could fit more of them in ones fermentation fridge (It is a line of thought I have been pondering).

sorry malted missed your question

I use one of those 15l jobbies, you know the cut down 30l ones, I don't think its the best because they are too wide for the height. Been thinking of using a 15l jerry can so I can put them side by side in the fridge

cheer steve

edit: Angus, 4 cm should be enough but I did have to grind down the skin fitting on the pump inlet to make it fit. As for the lifting point I use 2 stainless steel counter sunk screws and lots of washers. Ill post some pics

 

[angus_grant]

ha ha, we posted at the same time Steve.

I am thinking now I will go with the 19L malt pipe + 50L main vessel. Given I will have 50mm each side for the heating element that should be plenty of space. I will position the heating element as close to the side as possible so I can upgrade to a 25L malt pipe if I want, but I will start with the idea of adding a second 19L pot to the top to increase volume. Cheaper...

I did some calcs and adding 9cms of another 19L pot to the existing malt pipe gives me a grain bill of 6kgs and min water of 20L which sounds more reasonable. And the beauty of that solution is that I still use the same sealing system at the bottom (which I haven't figured out yet) regardless of using the standard pot or two pots added together.

And one other bonus is the Mrs will be pleased that I am still using the 19L pot that I bought. I will buy another one for the extended malt pipe this weekend in case they stop stocking them. Perhaps a 3rd as a spare, or to heat up sparge water. I will be able to use a straight kitchen element for that though.

I haven't actually seen someone's malt pipe. Have you just cut the bottom of the pot away? I am thinking I may take this to a machine shop (or get a mate to do it who is very good with metal work) so as to get a straight cut.

 

[matho]

here are some pics

 

[angus_grant]

Cool, thanks Steve. Clears things up. I just figured people were cutting the bottom of the pot, but that would change the volume of the pot.....

I just purchased the pot. It should arrive next week. So things worked out a bit cheaper than I thought

So things to arrive next week:
-> 50L pot
-> 2 * Auberins 25A SSR + heatsinks
-> USB data acquisition device

Still to purchase/work out:
-> heating element
-> sealing of malt pipe
-> pump
-> thermowell for temp probe
-> associated plumbing bits (pipe and elbows for pump, outlet valve, etc)

Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?

With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.

 

[matho]

Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?

With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.

I think Alexl is using a brown pump on a full size system and it seems to work.

2400W element pulls 10 amps at 240V, if you drop the volts so does the current and power because the resistance stays the same.

some useful formula's

ohm's law

V=I x R, I= V/R, R= V/I

power

P = V x A , P = I^2 x R, P = V^2/R

cheers steve

 

[seamad]

Angus,
i use a bigw pot for my malt pipe, you should be able to squeeze 6 kg in it, just did a porter in mine with 5.7 kg.

Cheers
sean

 

[angus_grant]

Yeh, something wasn't quite gelling when the voltage dropped and amps went up. Thanks for the formulas Steve. Some rusty memories from grade 12 physics from 8 years ago. formulas all work now with amps dropping as the voltage does. 2400W element it is.

Thanks Sean. Must be quite a squeeze getting 6 kilos in there. Have you measured your efficiency with that much grain?

Almost got enough gear to start hacking it all apart. Ha ha

 

[seamad]

Angus, effeciency dropped to 73% into fermenter for that one.

Have done a few more mods to the blackdog, took some photos of the brew today, pretty happy with it now. Should post the updates tomorrow.

 

[cspencer]

Cool, thanks Steve. Clears things up. I just figured people were cutting the bottom of the pot, but that would change the volume of the pot.....

I just purchased the pot. It should arrive next week. So things worked out a bit cheaper than I thought

So things to arrive next week:
-> 50L pot
-> 2 * Auberins 25A SSR + heatsinks
-> USB data acquisition device

Still to purchase/work out:
-> heating element
-> sealing of malt pipe
-> pump
-> thermowell for temp probe
-> associated plumbing bits (pipe and elbows for pump, outlet valve, etc)

Will one of those little brown pumps handle the load or am I better off going straight to a March pump?

With the heating element, I am looking at 2400 watt element, but will be running it on a standard powerpoint which is 10 amps. The heating element will draw 10 amps (if my calcs are correct). And if the power at the point is actually 230V then the amps will be slightly greater than 10 amps. So is this OK, or should I drop down to 2200W or 2000W. I would prefer to use the 2400W to decrease ramping times.

Angus, where did you get the SSR and Pot from?

As soon as Microsoft pays me my Windows Phone app Royalties I'll start getting the hardware together.

 

[angus_grant]

Angus, where did you get the SSR and Pot from?

As soon as Microsoft pays me my Windows Phone app Royalties I'll start getting the hardware together.

2 * Auberins SSR 25A
2 * Auberins SSR Heat sink
The heat sink is an external heat sink so they will sit on the outside of the control box, and the relay is on the inside. Sounded like a good idea at the time and only $3 difference.

50L stainless food grade pot

Sean, look forward to some more pics.

 

[angus_grant]

here are some pics

OK, so here's my thinking on the malt pipe seal. Chopping a circle out of the bottom of the pot like Steve has done, surely I can just get a circle of flat silicon which lays on the bottom of the main vessel and gets squashed in between the two pots when winding down the butterfly nut on the rod. It doesn't need to be attached to the lip of the malt pipe. That would make it easier to seal up the malt pipe: just a circle of silicon underneath the malt pipe.

The problem then is how do I withdraw the seal when withdrawing the malt pipe. Attach it to the bottom filter somehow, or attach it to the lifting points on the malt pipe. Makes more sense to attach it to the pipe as I will only want to withdraw the seal when withdrawing the pipe. Or do I permanently attach it to the malt pipe with some type of high temp adhesive. Would have to be food grade as well, I suppose.

Or when the malt pipe is withdrawn, then the seal is free to float around and I just lift it out with a spoon or something.

How well is your setup sealing Steve?

How are other people doing the seal?

 

[lukec]

After 1 brew in mine ive already decided to change a few things. Managed to get some perforated stainless to make better filters in malt pipe. Also modifying top of my keggle and actually made a lifting device and a bracket kind of thing for the malt pipe to sit on.

Ill post some pics of keg tomorrow after i modify it but here are some of the handle and bracket that i made up and work today ( busy day for me ).

 

[dmac80]

OK, so here's my thinking on the malt pipe seal. Chopping a circle out of the bottom of the pot like Steve has done, surely I can just get a circle of flat silicon which lays on the bottom of the main vessel and gets squashed in between the two pots when winding down the butterfly nut on the rod. It doesn't need to be attached to the lip of the malt pipe. That would make it easier to seal up the malt pipe: just a circle of silicon underneath the malt pipe.

The problem then is how do I withdraw the seal when withdrawing the malt pipe. Attach it to the bottom filter somehow, or attach it to the lifting points on the malt pipe. Makes more sense to attach it to the pipe as I will only want to withdraw the seal when withdrawing the pipe. Or do I permanently attach it to the malt pipe with some type of high temp adhesive. Would have to be food grade as well, I suppose.

Or when the malt pipe is withdrawn, then the seal is free to float around and I just lift it out with a spoon or something.

How well is your setup sealing Steve?

How are other people doing the seal?

I bought some silicon baking mats off the internet and chopped one of those up to use as a seal, and just fish it out after the malt pipe comes out. I found it easiest to place the bake mat on the bottom of the vessel when it is cold, clamp the malt pipe in without the top filter plate, then heat up to strike temp. When at strike, add malt, top filter plate and refit clamp.
Cheers

 

[stux]

those figures I quoted in the PDF were conservative estimates, in the braumiser I went for a pot that gave me about 7.5l 'mash tun' capacity. Now this has limited me to about 10l of 1.050 wort into the fermenter, that is with 2.5kg of grain. What I have found with my system is that extract efficiency drops off rapidly as the grain bill increase, at 2kg of grain I can expect 80%+ extract at 2.5kg that has dropped to about 72%. If you can, go larger because it will give you more flexibility with the grain bill, your figures look good at glance, without knowing the exact dimensions of the pots. With a 19l pot you could probably squeeze over 5kg into it but the flow and efficiency will suffer.

cheers steve

Matho, I've done a fair bit of work on modelling BIAB extract efficiencies. You'll find that almost all your extract efficiency loss is due to extract being trapped by real grain absorption.

As the gravity goes up, the extact lost to the absorption will go up

Do you sparge? A good sparge should basically be able to get you back up to 90% efficiency.

 

[angus_grant]

Looks the goods Luke. I am still yet to turn my mind to lifting points, etc, etc. I am leaning towards some stainless eye-bolts like below:

Then some form of bracket like you have done with hooks on it for the eye-bolts. The eventual plan is to automate a winch to remove the malt pipe to draining position and then pump sparge water from other vessel through the malt pipe. That is somewhat down the track though.

Nice Dmak. Seems a lot easier than trying to seal the actual hole cut in the pot. More eBay purchasing for me... Man, my credit card is copping a pounding. Still, I've got to buy all this stuff before my baby arrives early July.