Boho Pils And 5.2 Stabiliser

[mikem108]

Will be going to the trouble of cutting the tap water with distilled to get it a bit softer and more in the Pilsen range to make a Bohemian Pilsner.
My question is after going to the trouble of softening the water is it wise to the add PH5.2 stabiliser to it, to me it seems contrary, take out the minerals and then put some other salts back in?
I've also read conflicting information about adding acidulated malt in this situation, would you add it on a mash of soft water?
Thanks

 

[A3k]

Have you got a water report?

 

[mikem108]

yeah, Sydney water, prospect catchment
pretty soft but too high in carbonate, will be cutting 50/50 with distilled

 

[Stuster]

I don't think you really need to dilute the water, Mike. Sydney water is not really that much harder than Pilsen water. If you do it though, I would avoid 5.2. It's designed to work with hard waters rather than soft and won't really help you here. Looking at Pilsen water, there's a balance between sulphates and chlorides, so you might actually want to add a tiny bit of gypsum to balance that up. I think acidulated malt would be useful, or you could just add acid to get to the right pH.

The biggest issue though is that Pilsen water (and Sydney's) is low in calcium which is apparently the reason behind the long mash they do. Personally, I think you are better off just going with Sydney water and adding small amounts of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride to up the calcium levels, trying to end up with a balance of chloride and sulphate.

 

[Bribie G]

Did exactly the same on Wednesday with my first Bohemian and bought half the water from Aldi in 'wine casks'. Calcium virtually non existent, a wee trace of magnesium. I didn't put in any 5.2 - interesting to see how it turns out. I can't get a report for Bribie Island, we get a cocktail from bores on the island mixed with mainland stuff from Wivenhoe, North Pine, who knows. :unsure: . I have a tank mostly used for the garden, but recently cleaned it out with steradent so won't be suitable for brewing until it's had a good rain flush again.

Edit: lucky bastards to have Sydney water. Whenever we visit the rellies first thing I do is decline the offer of a tea or coffee, I head for the kitchen tap and grab a pint. They think I'm eccentric.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Whenever we visit the rellies first thing I do is decline the offer of a tea or coffee, I head for the kitchen tap and grab a pint. They think I'm eccentric.

You've got to be rich to be considered eccentric. Poor people like you are just considered mad



My label on my 5.2 jar lists no contents (faded off) - what is in 5.2 ?

 

[Supra-Jim]

My label on my 5.2 jar lists no contents (faded off) - what is in 5.2 ?

Ground up de-hydrated pH fairies (closely related to sea-monkeys!)

I have a jar in front of me and it only says proprietry blend of food grade phosphate buffers. The Five star chemical website doe have an MSDS on the stuff which should contain more details.

Cheers SJ

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Ground up de-hydrated pH fairies (closely related to sea-monkeys!)

I have a jar in front of me and it only says proprietry blend of food grade phosphate buffers. The Five star chemical website doe have an MSDS on the stuff which should contain more details.

Cheers SJ

Missed the MSDS on the site .. not to worry. I can't see the link of 5.2 to calcium in the water. Need a scientist, but from what little I know of 5.2, it releases various "salts" that dissolve one way or the other at pH 5.2 then stops dissolving. Therefore its a balancing thing only. Its really just a pH thing. If your water is calcium deficient, 5.2 doesn't appear if its going to assist in this matter. Makes sense to anyone or am I on the wrong track ?

Need to solve this one Mike cos my next brew will be my first pilsener with Weyermanns BoPils. Need all the help I can get.




Edit - the MSDS and Technical Sheet on 5Star Chemicals site useless for supplying the ingredients of said 5.2

 

[Supra-Jim]

Yeah, as you've stated FGZ, I believe 5.2 is only for balancing pH, not a magical cure-all for all water deficincies.

Cheers SJ

 

[muckanic]

Missed the MSDS on the site .. not to worry. I can't see the link of 5.2 to calcium in the water. Need a scientist, but from what little I know of 5.2, it releases various "salts" that dissolve one way or the other at pH 5.2 then stops dissolving. Therefore its a balancing thing only. Its really just a pH thing. If your water is calcium deficient, 5.2 doesn't appear if its going to assist in this matter. Makes sense to anyone or am I on the wrong track ?

Speculating here. Going by the acidities of these ions, it is probably a mixture of H2PO4- and HPO4--. The other question is what is the cation(s)? Sodium biphosphates are readily available from chem supply houses, whereas agricultural superphosphate is mainly calcium based. Ca salts would be preferable for beer, and would obviously also supply Ca for other purposes like enzyme function. The other nice part is that too much Ca precipitates malt phosphates, which are required as a yeast nutrient. So a Ca phosphate mix would kill two birds with the one stone, so to speak.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Speculating here. Going by the acidities of these ions, it is probably a mixture of H2PO4- and HPO4--. The other question is what is the cation(s)? Sodium biphosphates are readily available from chem supply houses, whereas agricultural superphosphate is mainly calcium based. Ca salts would be preferable for beer, and would obviously also supply Ca for other purposes like enzyme function. The other nice part is that too much Ca precipitates malt phosphates, which are required as a yeast nutrient. So a Ca phosphate mix would kill two birds with the one stone, so to speak.

You sure you aren't a solicitor Muck ? What you said sounded absolutely convincing and professional, but was completely useless.

Unless we really get the ingredients of 5.2.

 

[muckanic]

OK, in jargon-free language, you could do what I attempted to do and purchase both CaHPO4 and Ca(H2PO4)2 from a chem supplier. If you get that far, I can calculate the mix ratio for you, although you would have to inform me about factors like water of crystallisation. Whoops! However, for the small quantities involved, I wouldn't be surprised if 5.2 is the more readily available Na2HPO4 and NaH2PO4. Folks don't seem to worry about dumping half a teaspoon of sodium met in their mashes, for much the same reason.

Oh stuff it - make the stuff. Drip phosphoric acid onto lime and monitor the pH closely. Can't say any more without lapsing into chemical mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Stuster]

Well, from the Five Star Chemicals site.

52 is a proprietary blend of food-grade phosphate buffers (similar to brewers salts) that will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water. 52 is safe for your mash and WILL NOT add any flavors to your beer. 52 will provide consistency of pH in any water conditions, but the most significant gains will be
obtained if you are brewing in hard water.

Nowhere can I find if it adds calcium in there. Probably, but not surprisingly they are keeping exactly what's in there secret.

 

[thunderchild]

While we are talking about water quality, does anybody know the typical anayisis of rain water? I'm buggered if I can get a hit on the net......

 

[muckanic]

While we are talking about water quality, does anybody know the typical anayisis of rain water? I'm buggered if I can get a hit on the net......

Before or after it has run across your roof and sat in your tank? B)

 

[shonky]

Hi Mike,

I have a pH meter if you would like to borrow it.

At this stage the next time I am planning on brewing is Monday night.

I am in Alexandria, PM me if you have any interest

Jon

 

[thunderchild]

Before or after it has run across your roof and sat in your tank? B)

After including the decaying carcaes of dead birds and mice.....

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I would be surprised if the 5.2 adds calcium or any other particularly important brewing molecules - they want to balance your pH not make a difference to the flavour of your beer.

I'd just use the 5.2 if you dont want to play with acids. But perhaps at a half dose (which I have heard is still perfectly effective) so that any mineral flavours dont come through into your delicate pale lager.

 

[Crazy]

Thunderchild

I had the same problem and have sent a sample off for testing and should have the results Monday. That being said though I would presume it would be fairly variable dependant on rainfall frequency and probably a billion other things.

Derrick

 

[3G]

While we are talking about water quality, does anybody know the typical anayisis of rain water? I'm buggered if I can get a hit on the net......

Some one from Adelaide (possibly DrSmurto) got their's tested and came back pretty much blank. pH is around 6.4 from memory due to carbonic acid i think.