Boho Pils And 5.2 Stabiliser

[blackbock]

Although I can't comment directly on Prospect water, one of the differences between our water here on the East Coast Aus and that of, say, Central Europe is the relatively large amount of Sodium Chloride present in our water. By diluting with purified water you are already getting very close to Pilsen's water profile. Don't forget that BoPils was traditionally mashed with a phytase rest, I can't see why using Acidulated malt in place of that would be a bad move, perhaps adding CaCl if you normally have conversion problems . I can't really believe that using the 5.2 buffer is necessary, and if noone knows what's in it, why would you use it?

 

[Batz]

and if noone knows what's in it, why would you use it?

I've thought this myself,but I did buy some to try it. Now I only use rainwater here (that's all I have) but have noticed no difference when adding 5.2, to efficiency or flavour. After checking my rainwater PH it's close to 5.2 anyway.
What puzzles me is brewers who add other water conditioning additives as well as 5.2. The label on 5.2 reads ....

"Never worry about Ph again! One teaspoon to tablespoon of 5.2 per 23L batch and your water is instantly adjusted to the perfect ph of 5.2, no matter what your starting ph was."

So if you were to add Calcium Sulfate as well as 5.2 wouldn't you still have a PH of 5.2? (instantly adjusted)?

Well that's how I see it anyway.

Batz

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I can't really believe that using the 5.2 buffer is necessary, and if noone knows what's in it, why would you use it?

Blind faith. I don't pretend to have a great knowledge of brewing principles - definitely more a philosopher than a scientist. Much of my life is all about philosophy and practicality rather than application and aptitude. I use 5.2 in the blind faith that it is doing my brewing good. (cos someone says it will). It's the same blind faith I have that since I'm following an english recipe, that my english bitter is just like what it tastes like in England (never been there, doubt I've ever drunk an authentic english bitter).

That said, I also believe in people I trust. (sure, been gutted when that fails, but hey, you gotta have faith in someone). BB, I've seen enough of your posting to say "hey, he's got a pretty fair idea of what the go is" to have some faith in your opinions and conclusions in regard to brewing. Additionally, your water comes form the same sources as my water and gets pretty much the same treatment. If you said, add acidulated malts or CaCl to the water for a "pilsen" type effect, sure I'd believe you. I've no reason to believe or disbelieve you, its just showing a little faith. Get my drift ?

 

[Batz]

Blind faith. I don't pretend to have a great knowledge of brewing principles - definitely more a philosopher than a scientist. Much of my life is all about philosophy and practicality rather than application and aptitude. I use 5.2 in the blind faith that it is doing my brewing good. (cos someone says it will). It's the same blind faith I have that since I'm following an english recipe, that my english bitter is just like what it tastes like in England (never been there, doubt I've ever drunk an authentic english bitter).

That said, I also believe in people I trust. (sure, been gutted when that fails, but hey, you gotta have faith in someone). BB, I've seen enough of your posting to say "hey, he's got a pretty fair idea of what the go is" to have some faith in your opinions and conclusions in regard to brewing. Additionally, your water comes form the same sources as my water and gets pretty much the same treatment. If you said, add acidulated malts or CaCl to the water for a "pilsen" type effect, sure I'd believe you. I've no reason to believe or disbelieve you, its just showing a little faith. Get my drift ?

What's your ph now? If it's 5.2 then it's a waste of time using it hey?

As I said,

What puzzles me is brewers who add other water conditioning additives as well as 5.2.

Batz

 

[Fatgodzilla]

What's your ph now? If it's 5.2 then it's a waste of time using it hey?

As I said,



Batz

I don't pretend to have a great knowledge of brewing principles

.


I also have nothing to measure pH ! Until I took up all AG, I had spent 30 years in complete ignorance of what pH actually is all about ! Hey, I bought a refractor, I'll buy the pH reader when NSW wins SOO and Clean Brewer puts $50 into the cost.

Its a problem with homebrewers is that we have three sources of information

1. Here at AHB .. guess that in 75 % of cases, the only reliable source.
2. Mates .. almost certainly unreliable in 95% of cases UNLESS you only hang around fellow Home Brewers
3. The Written Word .. whether in print or via the WWW, you actually read something from somebody. Podcasts are the written word in oral form.

Blind faith ...... why I'm a Catholic, vote Labor, a Dragons supporter and a St Kilda supporter. Shit happens, but you got to stand by something ! So I'll use 5.2 until I think I shouldn't, until I know better or until the jar runs out ........... whatever comes first. :icon_cheers:

 

[Batz]

Fair enough, I measure my ph because I do voluntary 'water watch' for Landcare. Very nice equipment that I can't help testing my water with as well.

I know a good palm reader if your interested,I think she does tea leaves as well.

Batz

 

[fraser_john]

I used to use 5.2 to all my brews, I use rainwater exclusively as well. Then I figured that my beers were missing something, some competition results came back as "not malty enough", "balance incorrect" etc. I then started investigating the use of water and the ions present (chloride, sulphate, calcium etc). I also bought a cheap Ph meter from Jaycar, some citric acid, lactose acid etc. Now I balance my mash Ph that way, after adjusting the ions per Palmers spreadsheet and the BABBs online version of the nomograph. I reckon my beers have improved in flavour dramatically and I don't have to use 5.2 anymore!

John

 

[Batz]

I used to use 5.2 to all my brews, I use rainwater exclusively as well. Then I figured that my beers were missing something, some competition results came back as "not malty enough", "balance incorrect" etc. I then started investigating the use of water and the ions present (chloride, sulphate, calcium etc). I also bought a cheap Ph meter from Jaycar, some citric acid, lactose acid etc. Now I balance my mash Ph that way, after adjusting the ions per Palmers spreadsheet and the BABBs online version of the nomograph. I reckon my beers have improved in flavour dramatically and I don't have to use 5.2 anymore!

John

+1 That's it John :super:

Batz

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I know a good palm reader if your interested,I think she does tea leaves as well.
Batz

Send her my way .. I'm hoping my luck changes towards the good sometime ... clarification one way or the other would be nice ........... :icon_cheers:


You're not working on commisssion from Ross or someone trying to flog pH readers are you ..........

 

[blackbock]

That said, I also believe in people I trust. (sure, been gutted when that fails, but hey, you gotta have faith in someone). BB, I've seen enough of your posting to say "hey, he's got a pretty fair idea of what the go is" to have some faith in your opinions and conclusions in regard to brewing. Additionally, your water comes form the same sources as my water and gets pretty much the same treatment. If you said, add acidulated malts or CaCl to the water for a "pilsen" type effect, sure I'd believe you. I've no reason to believe or disbelieve you, its just showing a little faith. Get my drift ?

FG I'm no evangelist, just another AHB member making some points I thought relevant.

For me it's not about faith, but rather cause and effect.

Intention was not for my post to take this discussion off topic, but there does seem to be a lot of blind faith in magical additives out there.

 

[fraser_john]

You're not working on commisssion from Ross or someone trying to flog pH readers are you ..........

Check Jaycar, from memory mine was less than $50 and I am very happy with it!

John

 

[Fatgodzilla]

FG I'm no evangelist, just another AHB member making some points I thought relevant.

For me it's not about faith, but rather cause and effect.

Intention was not for my post to take this discussion off topic, but there does seem to be a lot of blind faith in magical additives out there.

BB I'm not proclaiming you as Messiah (you're probably just a naughty boy) the faith is not in the application but the thoughts behind it. I'm no different from the average noobie brewer, we read, we digest, we make economic decisions. I read, I thought , I bought. The more you read (and probably buy) the further into the argument we sink. Far from accepting everything (anything) you read on the web (and this site in particular), I'm happy to read and make my own decisions and blame no one for any poor results.

We all run the risk that what we write here may be taken as gospel by others. Caveat emptor.

The original posting (may I say by a brewer far more knowledible than me) was never going to stay on track cos no one here knows what's in 5.2. Comments like yours about acidulated acids / CaCl have to be presented for members to either agree or refute. My thinking processes says "if BB says yeh, I agree" Trust me, if someone I trust more comes along and disagrees with you, your thoughts are history !" Hey, I'm fickle as the next punter.

 

[mikem108]

OK so wort is made and fermenting, I did not use 5.2, but I did dilute filtered tap water with distilled and used some acidulated malt, did a 1.5 hr mash and got great efficiency, so much in that I had to dilute the runnings during the boil with a couple of litres of water to stay at the target gravity. Having added the yeast from Gerard the fermentation took off like a rocket, never had that before with a lager !
What I was really trying to achieve was being able to jam a crazy amount of czech saaz into the beer without the bitterness being too harsh or up front.Time will tell what the result is as its only recently that I've started to worry about the water chemistry in detail. I used the water chemistry calculator in beer tools pro to calculate the dilution and got it pretty close to pilsen. Prior to that I used 5.2 and thought thats all I needed to do after reviewing John Palmers RA information I saw there was much more to it than just chucking in some 5.2 and being happy with the PH being right.
Thanks for all the thoughtful, helpful comments

 

[clean brewer]

I also have nothing to measure pH ! Until I took up all AG, I had spent 30 years in complete ignorance of what pH actually is all about ! Hey, I bought a refractor, I'll buy the pH reader when NSW wins SOO and Clean Brewer puts $50 into the cost.

:icon_offtopic: Another sneaky little comment Fatz, pissed my pants(nearly) laughing when I spotted this comment... You can only hope.. Ive got my order ready to go from Craftbrewer, just waiting on my $50 from you to pay the Invoice.....


Oh, I use 5.2... Just because I bought it when a judge said I should look at my PH in my beer, could make a difference.... I did get a water report and it was stated that the water in our Area is always around a PH of 7.5, so.....

 

[Fatgodzilla]

OK so wort is made and fermenting, I did not use 5.2, but I did dilute filtered tap water with distilled and used some acidulated malt, did a 1.5 hr mash and got great efficiency, so much in that I had to dilute the runnings during the boil with a couple of litres of water to stay at the target gravity. Having added the yeast from Gerard the fermentation took off like a rocket, never had that before with a lager !
What I was really trying to achieve was being able to jam a crazy amount of czech saaz into the beer without the bitterness being too harsh or up front.Time will tell what the result is as its only recently that I've started to worry about the water chemistry in detail. I used the water chemistry calculator in beer tools pro to calculate the dilution and got it pretty close to pilsen. Prior to that I used 5.2 and thought thats all I needed to do after reviewing John Palmers RA information I saw there was much more to it than just chucking in some 5.2 and being happy with the PH being right.
Thanks for all the thoughtful, helpful comments

So you caused all this argument for nothing you bugger



:icon_cheers:


The thread has changed completely from your OP, you didn't say what (if any) your pH readings were ? did you (have the facilities to) record any ?

 

[shandy]

Probably worth remembering that it's not the PH of your water that matters at all but the PH of your mash. I use Melbourne water which has a PH in the 7 range somewhere. I correct all my minerals for the style of beer and result I want then I use 5.2 to make sure my PH is correct. Calcium, Sulfate, Chloride and residual Alkalinity aside I still need to correct that PH and in the absence of a PH meter it's the best solution I have. Beers turn out great. Are they better that without I don't know because the culmination of all my water research has taken place over the time I've been using 5.2 to fix my PH. I used to test PH with strips and now don't because 5.2 always fixed it. Do I need to use 5.2 all the time? Yeah I think I probably do because with my lighter coloured beers my PH is going to be waaaay too high and with my dark beers it might sometimes run the risk of being too low. I've only ever bought one big tub of the stuff and that'll run out soon. No doubt I'll be going through the same thoughts when it comes time to buy a new one but I only does at half the recommended amount and achieved correct PH the first few times I measured so I've gotten a lot out of it.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If I don't adjust my water - my mash pH is a little higher than I want on pale beers - but fine on darker beers

If I put half a tablespoon of 5.2 in the mashtun.. my pH is 5.2-5.4 every time regardless of the colour of the beer - I do not have to think about pH and therefore I can concentrate on other aspects of my process.

I think it is a lovely easy way to take the whole pH question out of the equation.

 

[mikem108]

I don't worry about the PH as much as the residual alkalinity, from what the ph strips told me it was just over 5. The point of the original post was whether 5.2 would add back any hardness.

 

[Screwtop]

Pretty sure 5.2 is a PH buffer. It's not the PH of your water that is important but the PH of your mash, and the 5.2 should be added to the mash. When grain and water are mixed a change will occur in the PH of the water (in most cases). A buffer works to correct both low and high PH situations. Buffer act as neutralizing agent and contains both positive and negative ions of a weak acid. So if the PH is on the alkaline side positive ions will react with the negative ions to neutralize the mash. Or if the mash is on the acid side negative ions in the buffer react with the hydro -ve ions to neutralize the wort.

After moving I have found my beers are much more intense in flavour, particular hop flavour and bitterness even though salt additions were adjusted for the water at the new location. Recently discovered that the water here is high in Chloride, and Sodium, both enhance flavours so now I have to go back to the drawing board, redesign recipes and review processes.

Screwy

 

[muckanic]

Don't forget that BoPils was traditionally mashed with a phytase rest, I can't see why using Acidulated malt in place of that would be a bad move, perhaps adding CaCl if you normally have conversion problems . I can't really believe that using the 5.2 buffer is necessary, and if noone knows what's in it, why would you use it?

Because it does everything that CaCl2 does and more, but reputedly without contributing any mineral flavours. Hence, the attraction for lagers. In principle, it could also come in handy when mashing large amounts of specialty malts, as there would be no need to read colour changes in dark wort when adjusting the pH upwards.

OTOH, if 5.2 is an inorganic salt, then it must be contributing minerals, with Na, K, Ca or Mg the most likely candidates. Another possibility is that it is a blend of ammonium salts, which I tend to think would be a bit of a mixed blessing. These might not contribute so much flavour, but it could be a case of excess nutrient (depending on the quantities used). The final possibility is that 5.2 is an organo-phosphate, which might solve the mineral hardness problem. In fact, malt contains just such a substance - it is the phytate that phytase rests exploit.

Brace yourself FGZ, I'm about to speak in tongues again :icon_cheers: . Here's the reaction that causes calcium additions to acidify the mash:

3Ca++ + 2HPO4-- <-> 2H+ + Ca3(PO4)2

So, calcium reacts with biphosphates in the malt, precipitates phosphates and releases acid. If CaCl2 is used then the acid released is HCl, whereas if CaSO4 is used then the acid is H2SO4. This raises an interesting conundrum: HCl is highly volatile at mash temperatures, and so would be expected to evaporate off. Presumably, it reacts with other stuff in the malt in order to preserve its effects. But note that if 5.2 is some blend of calcium biphosphates, then it would effectively be mirroring what occurs naturally anyway.

Can a kind soul with some 5.2 perform a simple test? Try to dissolve about a tablespoon in half a cup of cold water. Let us know whether its dissolving power is more like gypsum (CaSO4) or more like table salt (NaCl). If it's too soluble, I would start to get nervous ...