Water for Pilsner and acidulated malt

[Mozz]

Want to do a Bo Pils.
Darwin water profile I have is
Ca 9 mg.L
Mg 5
SO4 2
Na 3
Cl 1.3
HCO3 55

Do you think I need any acidulated malt in a recipe with this water profile which is basically all Pilsner malt and a bit of carapils and Vienna and Saaz hopped?

Would it hurt to add the acidulated malt ie can you go too low on pH?

Also wondering about the Ca for the yeast. Should I add some CaCl2 or CaSO4?

This is possibly softer than Pilsener water.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

Yes pH can be too low.
Carapils will drop it a bit but pale malt in distilled water is usually slightly too high.

However before adjusting mash pH, it's a good idea to get a guide on how much by measuring as accurately as you can. Software is a prediction tool based on info you supply. Best for you to verify that info yourself.

 

[MHB]

It is very soft, the recommended range for Ca is 50-100ppm and there are lots of good reasons to have that as a minimum (I usually aim at around 150ppm)
There are those that would suggest a little extra Mg wouldn't go astray particularly in a BoPils, say around an extra 20ppm

I doubt that you will get into the ideal mashing range without some acidification, be it Acid Malt (and yes you can go too low in pH), Acid Malt replaces Pilsner Malt in the recipe; each 1% of Acid Malt lowers the pH by 0.1. Without spending time doing the calculations to me it looks like around 3-5% wouldn't do any harm.

Whether you use Ca, SO4 or Cl, is pretty moot to the chemistry but the flavour impact is something you might want to consider. Sulphate will emphasise hop harshness, Chloride has a mellowing effect, a blend of 2 SO4 to 1 Cl is a pretty common compromise.

Mark

 

[manticle]

I haven't checked the sources myself yet mhb but martin brungard has suggested lagers are better with around 40ppm Ca and and possibly extra Mg (I always understood all malt wort to contain sufficient Mg but would like one day to sit down with the literature cited by him and others).

 

[MHB]

Going to depend. What Ca does in the brew (mash - kettle and fermenter) is pretty well understood, I cant see how 40ppm is enough to tick all the boxes.
The other thing people overlook is how a beer like Pilsner Urquell is made, traditionally its a very long slow and quite involuted mash, followed by a 2 hour boil in a copper kettle, then a fermentation/lagering cycle about twice as long as most similar beers. You have to wonder if there is a relationship between the water and the brewing method that evolved in that water.
I suspect that we cant just take one half of the equation into account when planning a beer.

I have read some of the information on Mg/Ca and remain a little unconvinced, some Mg is necessary but from what I can see, above the amount required by yeast anything Mg can do, Ca can do better!!
Mark

 

[Mozz]

Sounds like it might be good to add a bit of extra Ca keeping SO4:Cl ratio in correct balance and add a couple percent of acidulated malt.
I'll assume enough Mg in the malt.
I don't have a pH meter so it is flying blind.
Should be close.
Cheers for the help.

 

[manticle]

Going to depend. What Ca does in the brew (mash - kettle and fermenter) is pretty well understood, I cant see how 40ppm is enough to tick all the boxes.
The other thing people overlook is how a beer like Pilsner Urquell is made, traditionally its a very long slow and quite involuted mash, followed by a 2 hour boil in a copper kettle, then a fermentation/lagering cycle about twice as long as most similar beers. You have to wonder if there is a relationship between the water and the brewing method that evolved in that water.
I suspect that we cant just take one half of the equation into account when planning a beer.

I have read some of the information on Mg/Ca and remain a little unconvinced, some Mg is necessary but from what I can see, above the amount required by yeast anything Mg can do, Ca can do better!!
Mark

I agree but as I say I haven't checked those sources. Very keen to do so, time is a factor.

I can't see how the 50 Ca minimum will hurt and yes I agree - what I've read in literature sees Ca being the hero, Mg generally accounted for*.

Area of personal interest as you know so always keen to read more.

*In all malt wort anyway.

 

[Blind Dog]

Use a water profile calculator or spreadsheet. Personally, I tend to use the Brewers friend tools as they work well on an iPad, although a little cumbersome and do add 10 minutes or so to recipe formulation.

My experience is that the calculated mash pH is pretty much spot on (although I only measured accurately a few times with a friends pH meter and a few other times not so accurately with strips).

 

[Goose]

there appears to be two sides to the Ca++ debate and both are represented by respected individuals who are independently very accomplished. John Palmer is the Ca++ advocate while Martin Brungard believes Ca++ may be detrimental to lager yeast performance.

I've had the opportunity to meet JP who told me he has seen no evidence in the literature to support MB's conclusions though I am aware that MB has provided a plethora of references to support his hypothesis that I have not read.

I have a similar water profile to OP and had good success in my German lager and pils brews with absolutely zero mineral additions to the mash. Therefore I've decided that the only way to tell is to brew two identical recipes with the only difference being the addition of 10g of CaCl2 to take my Ca++ in the mashwater to 60 to 70 ppm, and see if I or my panel of willing testers can determine any difference.

In the meantime I'd be interested to hear if anyone else here has any experience or views whether the Ca++ has any discernible impact on their brews?

 

[MHB]

I did some experimenting, starting with Pale Malt in distilled water, making various additions and measuring the parameters I could.
There was a clear rise in yield from 0-50-100 ppm of Ca, very little change from there and no measurable change from 200-400ppm.
There was a measurable fall in wort and finished beer turbidity, basically followed the same Ca concentrations to a limit of about 100ppm (Measured on a Hanna turbidity meter) <100ppm showed no improvement in turbidity.
Sweet water, boiled wort and finished beer were more inline with the "optimum" pH values commonly found in brewing literature, without pH adjustments other than those provided by Ca additions - ideally the pH would have been lower. I don't believe we can get to ideal pH values without acidification in some form.
Testing conductivity showed more tannins at lower Ca levels - this was a little inconclusive as adding more Ca salts increases the conductivity, some of the Ca is consumed, lowering the conductivity, but as the Ca in the mash is consumed by reacting with Phosphates which lowers the pH.... well there was a trend, supported by colour measurement indicating that 100+ppm of Ca helps to supress tannin extraction (mechanism not defined). As Ca is known to lower pH which is well known to be associated with supressing tannin leaching from husks it may be in part or whole the pH rather than the Ca.

This was several years ago, but I found that for me in most beer around 100-150ppm of Ca works, the choice of the salts to use depends on the beer you are making, I'm far from convinced that Mg can replace Ca (tho some is necessary). Get the amount of Ca you need then adjust the pH to target and leave it alone works for me.
Mark

 

[Mozz]

OK Mark you've convinced me to up the Ca.

I used Bru'N water to calculate a profile.

I'm going to use
88.5% Pilsner malt
9% Carapils
2.5% Acid malt

Water adjustment 0.29 g/L gypsum and 0.17g/L calcium chloride giving a total of around 122 ppm Ca and a 2:1 sulfate to chloride ratio.

The estimated mash pH is 5.3.

Hmmmm now for the mash schedule..

Cheers
Morris

 

[Mozz]

Hmmmm

Just reading in Bru'N water that sulfate should be less than 150 ppm unless highly hopped (I'd be about 160).
This beer has an IBU of about 35.
Also states chloride should be well below 100 ppm if sulfates are high to avoid possible harshness (I'd be about 83).

Probably overthinking it now, as those numbers are pretty close to the suggested range.

 

[SBOB]

Hmmmm

Just reading in Bru'N water that sulfate should be less than 150 ppm unless highly hopped (I'd be about 160).
This beer has an IBU of about 35.
Also states chloride should be well below 100 ppm if sulfates are high to avoid possible harshness (I'd be about 83).

Probably overthinking it now, as those numbers are pretty close to the suggested range.

yep... probably overthinking it..

I also (vaguely) remember this being discussed on a Brew Strong podcast with Palmer and the ratio was more important than the overall numbers (within reason)

 

[dannymars]

What's the advantage of using acidulated malt over just adding lactic acid (apart from Reinheistgebot)? My understanding is that acidulated is just malt that's been sprayed with lactic anyways.

Surely you can be more precise with 88% lactic additions, and measure the pH as you add it.

 

[Mozz]

Still learning. Probably would be easier using lactic acid but when I started on this I just looked at a recipe and ordered the acidulated malt, so that's what I'll use this time round.

I thought with my water profile I mightn't need any acid but it seems I do.

 

[SBOB]

What's the advantage of using acidulated malt over just adding lactic acid (apart from Reinheistgebot)? My understanding is that acidulated is just malt that's been sprayed with lactic anyways.

Surely you can be more precise with 88% lactic additions, and measure the pH as you add it.

Yep, unless you're trying to be a purist or don't have affect to it, lactic acid is a simpler option

 

[Mardoo]

SOME acid malt is just regular malt sprayed with lactic. Now that this hair has been split...

 

[mabrungard]

yep... probably overthinking it..

I also (vaguely) remember this being discussed on a Brew Strong podcast with Palmer and the ratio was more important than the overall numbers (within reason)

No, the ratio is of only modest utility and it tends to point brewers in the wrong direction...as witnessed here. I can have 3 ppm Cl and 1 ppm SO4 and I'm pretty sure any of you would guess that it would have far less effect in beer than if I had 300 ppm Cl and 100 ppm SO4.

Another mention above that needs to be clarified is that SO4 emphasizes bitterness. While it can do that, it does it by increasing the perception of dryness in the beer finish. So, your beer does not need to be highly bittered in order to have sulfate provide a desirable effect. I use something like 70 ppm sulfate in my Scottish 70 and the effect in that malty beer is to dry out the finish and help the beer from being cloying.

Finally to the OP: Acid malt is a fine addition to a Pils. However, I caution against using the fairly high calcium that you propose. I've found that keeping calcium below 50 ppm is help to lager yeast performance and to beer flavor. I've been using a technique where all my calcium salts are added to only the mashing water. That helps boost the mashing calcium content over 40 ppm for oxalate reduction, but the overall calcium content is diluted when I sparge with mineral-free water.

Remember: lager yeast do not need calcium...at all. It is actually a myth that yeast need calcium in the water for their health. The malt supplies all the calcium to the wort that the yeast need. Brewing with distilled water is perfectly fine. This is not quite true when brewing with ale yeast. Then you do want about 50 ppm calcium in the water to help the ale yeast to flocculate well.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Martin

It's mentioned somewhere above that you have previously given references in support of your position.

Do you have a link to these references?

 

[TheWiggman]

Lyrebird, this post and the one on page 2.