Biodegradability/environmental Effects Of Cleaners And Sanitisers

[manticle]

My reading suggests that Sodium Percarbonate is fully biodegradeable but what effect does it have on garden soil? I'm assuming it raises the pH as it is an alkaline product but is that all? Can the pH be adjusted by adding a similarly biodegradeable acidic compound?

The reason I ask is mainly due to water saving/recycling as I have several full fermenters of water/oxyper mix which I'd prefer not to empty straight down the drain.

Any info on other products? (I've always assumed chlorine bleach solutions are best chucked in the drain).

 

[scott_penno]

Hi manticle,

My understanding is that sodium percarbonate breaks down into oxygen, water and soda ash (sodium carbonate). Soda ash is alkaline so that's probably the only concern... Maybe get some ph strips, measure the ph of the soil before you tip some water on the garden, leave it a week and then measure the ph afterward to see if there is any significant (or even slight) change...

Regards,

sap.

 

[BungalowBill]

My reading suggests that Sodium Percarbonate is fully biodegradeable but what effect does it have on garden soil? I'm assuming it raises the pH as it is an alkaline product but is that all? Can the pH be adjusted by adding a similarly biodegradeable acidic compound?

The reason I ask is mainly due to water saving/recycling as I have several full fermenters of water/oxyper mix which I'd prefer not to empty straight down the drain.

Any info on other products? (I've always assumed chlorine bleach solutions are best chucked in the drain).

Isn't it nappy san? I just tip it in the washing machine for the next wash, kills two birds with one stone.

 

[manticle]

It is the same as nappisan. Not sure if my washing machine will take the 90 odd litres I have but it's not a bad idea for future reference.

 

[Rod]

This thread has made me think about the PSR or pink stain remover or Chlorinated Trisodium Phosphate I have been using for a few years now

I purchased it for $60 for a 25kg bag a long time ago

It is very caustic , 1% solution is Ph 11.2

but cleans and sanitizes the bottles well

needs rinsing

may change later , but still got some to use

I put the used solution down the drain and have thought of putting the rinsing on the lawn , but will not now

 

[Infinitee]

True environmentalism would include burying your trash and toxic chemz in your yard and taking responsibility for what you use
Rather than pouring it down the drain so that it ends up in a huge slurry, filled with antibiotics, caustics, virii, fungi, bacteria, N-rich waste etc ... fermenting anaerobically for years, leaching into groundwater and producing super resistant strains of disease that will wipe the majority of humanity out in years to come.

But that's just IMHO.

*goes back to burying old toothpaste tubes and aluminium cans*

 

[manticle]

Mainly concerned about killing my hops and herbs there chief but I see your point. I use very little non biodegradeable chemicals in my house and I try and reduce waste.

Taking responsibility by burying will only last as long as you live though. The land will retain those toxins far longer than your life so if everyone buried their waste where they are it would not really benefit future generations as far as I can see - just split up landfill over a completely uncontrolled and uncontrollable land mass.

 

[Infinitee]

Thanks, el capitain.

I appreciate the spirit this topic was posted in.

The evidence I've seen shows that nature (and especially a hot compost!) can turn the most putrid, caustic, toxic of compounds into benign plant food in a matter of months.
Just as it can break down a few cans and caps.
When well diffused, of course.

But concentrating all our waste in landfill is a vector asking for a mutant toxin/organism to jump into our lives.
And they all have an 'acceptable' level of leakage into our groundwater - which sorta diffuses everywhere, eventually.

Re: the hot compost degrading even the most toxic of compounds - see Joe Jenkins book on Humanure for the awe-inspiring, biodegrading power of a good compost heap. (I believe there's a pdf on torrent floating round)

Save your vines by all means - heck you can even send me a rhizome

 

[manticle]

Everything I feel is safe or even slightly safe goes into my compost despite regular advice to the contrary - bones, meat, grains etc. Anything recyclable gets recycled (which include cans etc). Plastic bags get reused. Most weeks I don't bother putting out my garbage because there's simply not enough. That's probably as far as I'll go, at least until/if I move rurally and have more space to experiment.

I'd send you a rhizome but the energy required to get it to you would have a devestating effect on the immediate surrounds.

 

[Infinitee]

Unless the postal truck was going this way anyway...

You aspire to do very well.
That's the way, **** the regular advice to the contrary.
Not just bones, dairy, grains, but everything; newspaper, fresh ink cartridges, sump oil, excrement - all good for a healthy hot compost.
(I'm serious, read the book)

Has it occured to anyone to re-use their cleaners/sanitisers for a few uses?
With a pH so high, they probably infinite uses in them?
Or for an a/b extraction afterwards?

I'll stop now.
But I stand by my notion of pouring toxic chems onto a thick mulch, fused with a fungus onto non food-bearing trees - with a regular addition of compost.
That denatures the problem - rather than stockpiling it in anaerobic (preservative) environments for decades for our kids to deal with.
It will probably be the regulated advice on brewing chemical disposal in another 50 years
But christ, I can't help being ahead of my time.

 

[Nick JD]

Use instead of lime (CaCO3, not the stuff in your Corona) perhaps for soils that are too acidic...

 

[manticle]

Unless the postal truck was going this way anyway...

You aspire to do very well.
That's the way, **** the regular advice to the contrary.
Not just bones, dairy, grains, but everything; newspaper, fresh ink cartridges, sump oil, excrement - all good for a healthy hot compost.
(I'm serious, read the book)

Has it occured to anyone to re-use their cleaners/sanitisers for a few uses?
With a pH so high, they probably infinite uses in them?
Or for an a/b extraction afterwards?

I recycle/compost anything cellulosic including newspaper and the kitty litter (I use soil in their trays) gets dumped in the garden/compost as well. I have no use for sump oil but cooking oil waste is included in the compost bucket.

I also store and re-use my sanitation liquid. Usually I will use a touch of new stuff as well just to ensure I've got everything but I don't immediately discard something because it's been used. Partly about saving water and partly about saving money.

 

[pyrobrewer]

Just for the record
Napisan is not = to Sodium Percarbonate
Sodium percarbonate is an actve ingredient in napisan typicaly 60% - no issue
The issue I have is. What is the rest that almost everyone agrees needs to be rinsed out- that is no rinse, in pure sodium percarbonate?
Nappie san is good for shitty nappies - hell I used it for my chef uniforms - try drinking from the nappie bucket!

 

[manticle]

Who said sodium percarb or napisan was no rinse?

 

[Bandito]

A few years ago I setup a grey water system where almost all of my washing machine water was colected in plastic storage containers outside. Then I would add phosphoric acid to adjust the ph to around 6.0, then add miracle grow fertilisers and use it on my veges or lawn. This worked great when using normal clothes washing powders.

However this did not work with napisan washes - the ph was all over the place and never stabilised and I did some major harm to some lawn and veges trying it. Not sure what it was about it, but after that when I used napisan on my whites it went down the sink.

There might be some adjuster that could be added to balance the ph and neutralise the buffers but it is not phosphoric acid.

Of course I am talking about napisan. I dont have any phosphoric acid left to test with sodium percorbonate. I got the phosphoric acid from a hydro shop.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I doubt that there is a truly environmental way to deal with alkaline cleaners. You could of course balance the Ph of a given bucket you want to dispose of by adding a bit of acid. That doesn't necessarily make it "good" but it stops it messing up the pH balance of your soil. And given Bandito's experience might not work.

I try to reduce my impact by going with reduce and re-use. You already do with sanitiser (starsan is a good candidate for this and is pretty benign once diluted beyond its effective strength) - I use PBW as my brewery cleaner of choice for this reason. Basically you can re-use the stuff, a lot! Clean your equipment by giving it a good rinse, a good soak/scrub/circulate in PBW - then ether filter the pbw back into a storage container or use one that has settling room.

I store my PBW in a 20L chemical cube where the tap draws an inch above the bottom - pbw gets used, run through a cone of coarse filter cloth on the way back to the cube, and drawn off for re-use above the point where any soil will have settled out. I add a little PBW powder every now and again to keep the strength of the solution up as I top up the volume. As long as the solution as I draw it off, remains clear and clean looking I am happy to use it; and it certainly remains effective.

I also use the PBW at a bit less than the lowest recommended dose on the jar - Melbourne water is very soft and using a higher dose actually reduces the effectiveness of the cleaner because the chelating agents present to deal with hard water actually interfere - It shouldn't and doesn't seem to, hurt the effectiveness and I don't mind f it does a little - time is on my side. I'm happy to soak things for a longer time so I use less cleaner (and less elbow grease)

I used half a jar of PBW the first year I started using it - I am hoping that now that I have a better handle on how it works, the remaining half a jar will last me another 3 or 4 years.

TB

 

[///]

G'day

Been doing work over the last while on an Enzyme cleaner. This can replace caustic in many aspects, and beyond what it removes sees the enzymes stable until about the 8 hour mark where they attack themselves. Phd's and the commercialisation came out of this product, serious science is behind it.

Its just been released and am working on the sales effort.

Scotty

View attachment AerisGuard_Multi_Enzyme_Brewery_Cleaning_Solution_WEB.pdf

 

[Bandito]

Would like to give that a go. Any chance of free samples or a low quantity order?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

G'day

Been doing work over the last while on an Enzyme cleaner. This can replace caustic in many aspects, and beyond what it removes sees the enzymes stable until about the 8 hour mark where they attack themselves. Phd's and the commercialisation came out of this product, serious science is behind it.

Its just been released and am working on the sales effort.

Scotty

That stuff looks the trick .. any significant interest from industry?? It certainly reads as though there should be.

Ain't enzymes grand?

 

[matthendry]

G'day

Been doing work over the last while on an Enzyme cleaner. This can replace caustic in many aspects, and beyond what it removes sees the enzymes stable until about the 8 hour mark where they attack themselves. Phd's and the commercialisation came out of this product, serious science is behind it.

Its just been released and am working on the sales effort.

Scotty

You should contact some of the bigger homebrew retailers/wholesalers some who advertise on this site many of them also have very strong relationships with microbreweries who might be willing to try a new cleaner .How does this enyme based cleaner effect the BOD count and is there issues with putting it directly down the drain .