BIAB: Tipping boil dreggs into the fermenter

[Barge]

Too true, but be careful that "independant thought" does not become the dogma. (Political opposition parties are masters of the negative argument and where does that get us) One must come to a conclusion at some point and often, good enough is good enough. That goes for hypotheses/scientific theories too.

I'm not trying to personally attack here, but am going to call you on the below three comments you've made as being inconsistent.

I certainly don't take it personally and hope you don't take the following personally, either. There is no inconsistency here. What we have is a misunderstanding on what constitutes evidence.

I say that evidence and explanation has been provided on both points of protein denaturation and renaturation and on yeast attack on hot break and lipid release.

On yeast attack: A track to pursue was given and I said I would endeavour to seek out that information and read it for myself. As far as renaturation goes, examples were given about proteins in general. You recognise this yourself. Hence, it's a hypothesis that denatured proteins in wort may renature under certain conditions. There is no evidence for this.

You intimate that proof is not important. You quote that absolute proof is not particularly scientific. You quote that all science can do is reject or falsify hypotheses.

Proof is something that mathematicians do. Not scientists.

You state that if there is so much evidence as to why it is best practice (removal of hot break) then why is it so difficult to produce, yet when evidence and explanation is produced you reject it as not being specific enough.

That's right. I would like to see specific explanations of HOW hb affects flavour, stability, etc. I think that is reasonable to ask someone who has access to information not easily found, and is an ardent advocate for separating hb. If the studies haven't been done then it's simply a matter of MHB saying "I don't know how it's a problem, I just know that it is".


You then confirm that enzymes breaking down protein coagulates and redissolving of denatured proteins are hypotheses, but state that there is no evidence for this? Again I beg to differ that there is no evidence. Infact if you accept that they are hypotheses then given your above beliefs, there must be evidence.

Good hypotheses are based on evidence. For example, enzymes break down proteins, therefore enzymes may break down protein-polyphenol complexes in wort. This would then have to be studied to confirm if this is indeed the case. According to MHB, Kunze discusses this. I would like to read it for myself. Another example of an evidence based hypothesis is that proteins renature under certain conditions so they may renature in wort with a change in pH. This would have to be confirmed through experiment. If someone has confirmed this then I would be interested to read about it.

MHB and myself have provided evidence and explanation (as you required above) for the hypotheses (MHB provided a source which has the evidence. You provided a possible explanation). Surely given your beliefs and scientific background, it is down to you to come up with some evidence that these hypotheses are misguided or incorrect. (The hypotheses aren't misguided. I would just like to read the studies that confirm them first hand) Or at least do some research and quote to us some inaccuracies.

I am happy to say that I am wrong about the hypothesis if stronger evidence (stronger than none?) is found that debunks it. I am interested though as to why you seem to struggle against reasonable production of evidence again and again, when you seem to whole heartedly embrace the idea that Hot break should be kept out of the fermenter. It may well be the duality of man perhaps?

Again, I can't say this enough.

MHB provided a source of evidence that i would like to read. I understand his reluctance to produce it given that we are all busy people. You have provided a possible explanation that has not been studied directly. As MHB states, that is probably because there is no value in understanding HOW it works and WHY it's detrimental. Big beer is content to know that it IS bad and that's where the study ends. I still find this surprising because I could imagine they could benefit from knowing the mechanism but that's just me.

Can you not see why MHB may have gotten frustrated?

No

 

[TheWiggman]

At the end of the day I wouldn't get too hung up on it because if hot break can affect taste, that's a hard thing to chase scientifically. As far as I'm concerned it literally falls into the category of "we know it's not good, therefore we shouldn't do it". Just like we know MSG makes stuff taste better, sugar makes things sweet. We can go bezerk breaking down chemical makeups but the eventual outcome will be that adding chemical X makes it tastes better.
Then there are those that don't like sweet stuff. Someone could then argue that sugar makes things taste worse but the chemicals remain the same - the only thing that has changed is the individual's perception. Too unscientific is you ask me and pushes into the realm of art/philosophy. Which I believe beer making fits into. We need to be scientific to understand how things work in the process, but at the end of the day the right recipe and process (whether it be cold steeping roasts or whirlpooling in an anticlockwise direction on a full moon) that makes the beer that the most people like will be the best outcome.

 

[hotmelt]

What element are you using there hotmelt and where'd ya get it?

It's a birko element and came with the urn, it's just not as shiny as it used to be.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

I felt inspired today Hotmelt. Managed to find a dog bowl that's only 10mm shy of the internal diameter of my urn. I plan to leave it in there for entire mash & boil. Will do a quick 'recirc' using a jug at the start of glycoprotein rest.

 

[butisitart]

yep... irrefutable fact. you get a bit stupid on the 31st 500ml homebrew in the same session. i replicated it. now to find a cure for polio.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Worked a treat. Reduced my trub loss by 2litres.

 

[Curly79]

Hey Liam, does that just sit flush on the bottom of your Urn?

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Yep. I drilled some small holes around the bottom to help drain. It'll work better once I've installed a 90deg elbow similar to Hotmelt's

 

[Bribie G]

You'll make Bribie grumpy.

 

[Jack of all biers]

There is no inconsistency here. What we have is a misunderstanding on what constitutes evidence.

Not at all, I know there are multiple meanings and definitions of what constitutes evidence (dictionary, law, scientific, mathematical etc). Not all of them are what some scientific philosophies and accepted scientific approach are comfortable with (dictionary meaning includes; proof). Luckily home brewing is not a scientific endeavour and to apply the burden of proof that 'scientific evidence' places on it (with as much room for error as other concepts of evidence) would be problematic, because of the massive variables (from batch to brewery). Evidence; observation can be evidence, points of reference can be evidence, the scientific articles and research articles are also points of evidence. Some evidence carries stronger weight and some less so and on the balance of the sum of all evidence, conclusions can be made.

Studies into coagulated proteins show that some, including the proteins in egg whites (albumin) can have the coagulation reversed. Glycoprotein is a prominent protein group found in egg whites and in barley (Hordein, gliaden and other soluble glycoproteins that make up gluten). When the albumin (egg drop) forms in the hot break of the wort boil, these proteins are of the same basic make up as the albumin of egg whites. I'd say there is a high probability that a reversal of coagulation will happen in some of the proteins in barley, which share the same basic make up of the albumins and glycoproteins in egg whites. This fits with science philosopher, Rudolf Carnap's concepts of probability (logical positive inference). Especially given the massively complex nature of variables in different wort make ups (kinetic energy, pH levels, amounts and types of proteins/poyphenols etc) logically the evidence gives at least some weight to the hypothesis. Therefore the hypothesis of coagulated protein break down in wort (how can there be nil evidence for it if it is agreed that it is infact a hypothesis) fits with the science (or philosophy?) of Rudolf Carnap. I can't forward you to scientific research other than on the links I've already provided (as to view most papers costs hundreds of dollars of membership sign up), but a careful read and placing of all the facts together should provide the discerning reader with a view that break down of proteins in pH 4 beer can and will eventually happen in time. Could I be wrong, absolutely, but as has been quite rightly said, no hypothesis can be proven out right. A simple test however could be to take some hot break and place it in various acidic solutions to see if there is a reduction of visible mass. It would be pseudo science though.

Scientific evidence may be what some feel they need to accept something (and I'm cool with that), but lets face it, science quite often only quantifies, what practitioners have been observing, modifying and basing their practices on over years/centuries.

But I'm getting a little off topic now.

 

[klangers]

Damn. I'm sold on that trub ring. Simple and effective - the pure essence of good design.

 

[schtev]

In regards to the trub ring: you could try using the sides from a cheapo cake tin. The kind that has the spring-loaded sides that come away from the base. Should be able to pick one up for a couple of dollars from somewhere. They are usually non-stick Teflon though, not sure if that helps or hinders.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

yep that should work.
I noticed at Coles yesterday they had 32cm diameter SS mixing bowls which should also be a good fit for crown urns.

 

[TheWiggman]

That trub ring concept really should be in its own thread

 

[sponge]

I prefer trawling through the banter to discover the hidden gem.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

So this would be a bad time to show off my mad panel beating skills? [emoji51]

 

[tavas]

In regards to the trub ring: you could try using the sides from a cheapo cake tin. The kind that has the spring-loaded sides that come away from the base. Should be able to pick one up for a couple of dollars from somewhere. They are usually non-stick Teflon though, not sure if that helps or hinders.

Pretty sure I read that percarbonate will eat Teflon. Happy to proved wrong though.

 

[Rocker1986]

Pretty sure I read that percarbonate will eat Teflon. Happy to proved wrong though.

I've soaked Teflon coated stir bars in sodium perc numerous times without problems. Either I'm extremely lucky or it's a crock of shit.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

These are pretty cheap. Adjust the size to suit and you're good to go.