BIAB: Tipping boil dreggs into the fermenter

[InterCooL]

Hi guys

I've finally purchased a Crown urn. I was previously brewing in a pot.
My urn has 3L of dead space at the moment. I may be able to reduce this with a pickup tube, but don't have one currently.
I use a hop spider to boil with.
I no chill, so I don't wait for 20mins for trub to settle before siphoning out.

So my question is, can I just tip the last 3L of wort into my cube? Or should I leave it there.

Thanks

David

 

[InterCooL]

I should have added that I cold crash at the end of fermentation to try to drop most sediment out of the beer

 

[nosco]

Trub in the fermenter doesnt matter but most people try to avoid it. It all depend on how you tranfer to the fermenter from the cube i guess. I couldnt be stuffed with a syphon so i just tip it in. You can still avoid the last 3lt or like this. You could make an extra 3 litres so that the 20lt you put into the fermenter is mostly wort. If you want 23lt of beer then maybe not.
At a minimum try getting a pick up tube. A 90 degree elbow is ok. Do a bit of a whirlpool and transfer really slowly at first and then open up the tap until the hose is full of wort. Try and resist opening the tap right up. Keep the lid on too as much as you can. You can still do a 20min wait even with no chill as long as the wort doest go below 80 c to be safe.

 

[Rocker1986]

Hi guys
I've finally purchased a Crown urn. I was previously brewing in a pot.
My urn has 3L of dead space at the moment. I may be able to reduce this with a pickup tube, but don't have one currently.
I use a hop spider to boil with.
I no chill, so I don't wait for 20mins for trub to settle before siphoning out.

So my question is, can I just tip the last 3L of wort into my cube? Or should I leave it there.

Thanks

David

Are you saying you simply switch the urn off and then transfer it into the cube straight away with all the shit still in suspension? Probably not the preferred practice of most...

I use a hop spider too which is actually a home made job out of a hop sock. At flameout I rest the lid on top of it, and it sits slightly above the rim of the urn so steam can still escape but it keeps heat in pretty well. I leave it sit 15 minutes before transferring to the cube; last time I measured the temp at transfer and it was still sitting at 92C.

I can easily get 25 litres of trub free wort into my fermenter out of my Crown urn doing this. Another thing I've done is ditched whirlpooling it; I just let it settle out by itself as I found with whirlpooling the trub entered the tap outlet sooner than it did without it. Sometimes I tilt the urn back so it settles away from the tap outlet. I can tilt the urn carefully forward to get as much clean wort out as possible before the trub begins to make its way into the outlet, usually by this time the cube is completely filled. There is a fair bit less than 3L left in the urn by this stage. I use 25 litre cubes, but I do have 3 20 litre cubes for my "keg only" batches (obviously when these are used the volumes in the urn are reduced to match).

 

[MHB]

Trub (well lets say specifically Hot Break) does matter!
In fact it's one of the main reasons we boil a wort, link posted for the I don't know how manyth time The Function of Wort Boiling, by T O'Rourke
There are a bunch of other really good informative pages there that can be downloaded for free, mostly designed for people working in biggish breweries, but still well worth reading.
Mark

 

[Liam_snorkel]

at a home brew scale it doesn't seem to be an issue. Have a read of this:

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

and a listen to these (scroll down to the trub experiments):

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-brew-your-own-experiments

 

[nosco]

It might not matter on a home brew scale but i reckon its still good practice and as Rocker said you should at least give the hot break time to settle out. I have noticed that it settles better with the lid on.
Not dreggs in the wort means it will clear easier and you avoid any chance of off flavours.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

yep settles easier with lid on due to reduced convection currents. Leave the lid on while draining too. for the record I let mine settle & leave 90% of it behind in the kettle, but mostly because my cubes are 20 litres & I brew to fill 19 litre kegs. My broad point is that it is not the end of the world, and there is anecdotal evidence that there are no negative effects (at a home brew scale), at least in the short term.

 

[MHB]

I have read a couple of the "reports" by brulosophy, frankly they aren't very good if you think of them in terms of brewing science.
The same process and reactions apply at any scale, we may be a bit less concerned about getting beer into a bottle that will still be sellable in a years time. But the effect of lipids and heaps of high molecular weight protein doesn't change with batch size.
If you were willing to do a bit of research on exactly what does happen when you leave too much of the hot break in the fermenter, I suspect you would insist on leaving it in the kettle.

Personally I have a lot of trouble understanding why people are so concerned about getting every drop into the fermenter, I would much rather have 19L of better beer than 20L of second best, but then I don't need the alcohol and I don't feel like I've been castrated if my better beer costs a couple of cents more, everything I have seen from brulosophy appears to be focused on cutting corners being lazy and getting pissed cheap - not on making better beer.

Mind you, there is an ever growing amount of that sort of thinking here on AHB to! I suspect the number of people who are selling their gear, expressing dissatisfaction with their beer, having serious brewing problems is in large part related to this type of thinking.
It's worth following good brewing practice and doing the basic things that favor great beer, it isn't all that hard, it doesn't take much longer or cost much more and unless the alcohol is more important to you than the flavor - you will be drinking better beer.
Mark

 

[Judanero]

Well said.

 

[Rocker1986]

I enjoy reading the Brulosophy blog, but I haven't changed anything about my brewing processes as a result of it, except for the yeast harvesting and the lager method (which works well for my tastes at least). I would rather have a little less beer that I'm really happy with, than a little more beer that I'm not as happy with.

I think a fair chunk of the reason why his experiments with differing methods appear to have little, if any effect on the beer is because they're all done in isolation, only testing one variable. I suspect those who are producing beers that are less than great are doing 3 or 4 or 5 different things badly, and these combine to produce a shitty outcome, whereas one in isolation may not.

The problem is though, that despite him actually writing on the blogs to basically take it with a grain of salt, some people will read all these experiments and figure well, doing that doesn't have a negative effect, neither does doing this, that and the other thing... then combine them all in one batch and end up wondering why the beer turned out badly.

Recommended brewing practices are based on proper scientific research and testing (hopefully anyway), which I trust over a few anecdotes.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

MHB, nobody described it as science. Similar comments were made about BIAB and no-chill, but look how they've taken off. Any chance you could point us to actual research into the effects of fermenting on hot break?

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Last time this topic came up:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71545-fermenting-on-hot-break/
Enlightening, non-conclusive thread.

 

[RobW]

The one and only time I let any hot break get into the fermenter the final beer was very average.
It had a nasty harsh taste that I've never found any other time.
The rest of the process was as normal.

 

[MHB]

MHB, nobody described it as science. Similar comments were made about BIAB and no-chill, but look how they've taken off. Any chance you could point us to actual research into the effects of fermenting on hot break?

Last time this topic came up:
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/71545-fermenting-on-hot-break/
Enlightening, non-conclusive thread.

In reverse order, this is far from the first time this question has come up since the middle of 2013. Since then there has been plenty of discussion about the effect of hot break on beer and if you are really interested, rather than just trying to be lazy, pull out the old finger and do some reading for yourself - at least that way you might be able to place some value on the conclusions you reach, rather than just looking for some way to get around working toward good beer.

As for BIAB and No Chill, yes I remember the discussions around both as they were being developed, I like to think I among others contributed to the development of both processes. Both work and they work because they fall within good brewing practice. There is however a point that I would like to make.

There are consequences for every decision we as brewers make! As I have said before "everything ends up in the glass"

Take a look at BIAB, in comparison to conventional 3V systems or more advanced well designed recirculating systems (I brewed on a Braumeister for several years), its almost inevitable that more malt flour will end up in the boil.
This will (not might) will increase the amount of trub, as small starch granules in the flour will gelatinise in the boil there will be more Glucans and Starch in the wort. As the Glucanase and Amylase that are needed to modify these products have been denatured there will be an effect on your beer. It might not be large but it will be there; make enough changes and this and other changes do accumulate and you get a different beer.

No chill works of that there is no doubt. But how many threads are there on the effects on bitterness?
Some of our American friends have had issues with DMS that they don't experience when they chill quickly. Again the process affects the outcomes. If you understand a bit about the process of isomerisation of Alpha Acids, or the formation of DMS and its removal from wort these don't have to be a problem, but do requite that you modify your brewing process to achieve an intended outcome. Just using Low SMM Malt or Ale Malt rather than Lager Malt (especially 6 row) will reduce any DMS problems, but you do get darker beer if you use Ale Malt.

Over the last couple of years I have seen threads on home made malt (very questionable levels of modification and protein), short mashing times (probably gives more dextrin's), making 20L of beer in a 19L pot (without regard to the effect of L:G ratios on enzymes among other effects) short boils (affects bitterness and protein coagulation...) Turbid (opaque in some cases) going to the kettle, this one not separating hot break.

In and of them selves many of the process listed may not have a huge effect on your beer, but each will have an effect, accumulate enough change and there will be a big impact on your beer (generally negative).

Follow good basic brewing practices, use good ingredients, learn a bit about what the effects of your decisions will be on your beer and you will make better more enjoyable beer.
Mark

 

[Liam_snorkel]

^ I agree, and never told anyone to disregard or avoid reading published brewing science.

The question was "can I just tip the last 3L of wort into my cube? Or should I leave it there."

the summary of responses in this thread are:
- it's not best brewing practice
- yes, you can, the effects on beer at home brew scale are inconclusive

MHB can you please point me to a published study on the effect of fermenting wort on the entire amount of hotbreak.

 

[crowmanz]

I enjoy reading the Brulosophy blog, but I haven't changed anything about my brewing processes as a result of it, except for the yeast harvesting and the lager method (which works well for my tastes at least).

FYI Brulosophy is no longer a single contributor, there is a team of homebrewers posting on the Brulosophy blog. Doesn't really change your argument, it is still a bunch of blokes testing individual parts of the process.

 

[MHB]

Snip
MHB can you please point me to a published study on the effect of fermenting wort on the entire amount of hotbreak.

If you start with the link I posted above, just take a look at the bullet points above the opening paragraph


There are only 4 and I don't think there is anyone here that would argue with the other three.
The second one - Reduce the amount of congealable Nitrogen... Is what we are talking about. If you dump hot break into the fermenter some of the high MW protein will go back into solution, depending on the time,temperature and point in the process will affect how much. but as one of the main reasons we boil a wort is to reduce it, it make very little sense to allow it to go back into the wort.

The article is referenced, and to that list I would add Technology Malting and Brewing - Kunze and Foam by Charlie Bamforth, that's about $400 worth of books there and I an not lending you mine (too many missing books)

I don't know what more I can do for you, I'm not suggesting that one leave too much good wort in the kettle, (invest in a pick up tube) but strongly recommend that we leave the crap in the bottom of the kettle where it belongs.

If you or anyone else wants to learn more, invest in some good brewing text books, read all the relevant FREE IBD learning resources, go do a brewing class run by someone who knows what they are talking about - stop reading opinion by people whose only qualification is an ability to drink anything with ethanol in it and repeating it like its anything other than an ill-founded opinion.
Mark

Sorry, starting to get pissed off with the same crap endlessly recirculating, the BS here is getting too deep, might be time to go back into hibernation. DO THE BASICS RIGHT and you will make better beer.
M

 

[Liam_snorkel]

so how much of the precipitated nitrogen compounds are reabsorbed during fermentation, and would the use of PVPP (or bentonite?) flocculant post fermentation take care of that?
The current answers to OP's question remain:
will my beer be ruined: no
will MHB be angry: yes

 

[Barge]

If you start with the link I posted above, just take a look at the bullet points above the opening paragraph
Capture.JPG

If you dump hot break into the fermenter some of the high MW protein will go back into solution, depending on the time,temperature and point in the process will affect how much.
M

This is where I have an issue. I agree that a function of wort boiling is to precipitate high MW proteins. I have seen no study that shows the solubility of these proteins as a function of temperature. I can find no published Ksp for these proteins.

In my opinion your statement is speculation.

I agree that there are plenty of studies that have looked at the effect of hot break turbidity on fermentation and that there is a negative effect with respect to stability. As far as I have read, that is the only impact but I'm happy to be shown otherwise.

I think in the context of small batch brewing, long term stability is less of an issue. It is of concern to some brewers, some of the time and those brewers should be aware of the impact.

The assertion that brewers who choose to ferment on hot break are just piss heads who are looking to get drunk, cheap, is offensive.

The argumemt that you shouldn't ferment on break because that's the way it's done is about as unscientific as it gets.