Biab Sparge Idea

[6tri6ple6]

I have recently switched to all-grain biab (ive only done 2 brews). With my first batch, after mashing i just lifted the bag and gave it a good ol squeeze and proceeded with the boil. On my second brew, i reserved 8L of water and heated it to 76C and then batch sparged into a big 25L bucket and let it sit for 10 mins. After my "sparge" i just lifted the bag gave it a squeeze and proceeded on. The sparging method gave me an idea... I've got access to heaps of the 25L mayo buckets as the pub that i work in goes though heaps in the kitchen. Why not get 2 buckets, 1 lid and put one on top of the other and drill some holes through the bottom of the top bucket and the lid of the bottom bucket and when i pull the bag out, i place it in the bucket and sparge the grains and catch all the sugary goodness in the bottom bucket? this would have to increase efficency wouldnt it? My first 2 batches werent that efficent, so would this be a good idea?

Sorry no pics of my idea. Wanted to see if it was worth pursuing. Your thoughts? Pros and cons?

Cheers

Richard

 

[felten]

If you google Charlie Papazian bucket in a bucket, hopefully you should get a lot of hits.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yep, its not a bad idea - but you would be essentially making a seperate lauter tun and then dont actually need the bag anymore. As Google as per Felten's suggestion.

BIAB's main feature and advantage in my opinion is simplicity of equipment and process ... If you are willing to go through extra steps and make extra equipment to the extent you are talking about, then i think you will actually be far better served by looking at the different variations of "normal" mash tun/lauter tun brewing than you will be by trying to dream up additions to the BIAB process - they always just end up being pretty much the same as a mash tun anyway, you might as well use the experience of the hundreds of mash tun brewers on this site to do it as well as it can be done.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

If you'd like, you can look at what I do 2 colander sparge among other things.

Not saying it's perfect, but it works for me.

I agree totally with TB's assessment of why people BIAB - but I think he misses a couple of other reasons - the cost of equipment and the space. Whilst a Lauter Tun is essentially what OP is thinking about, putting it away with a pot would be both cheap (free lauter - alright I'm takiing this baby to mexico) and space efficient. Not to mention the fact that it can be done in an existing room (space efficient) as opposed to needing a separate "brewery" (i.e. not the kitchen).

With my method, it's space efficient, because my two pots fit in the hallway cupboard together. I take them out on brew day and put them on the stove and brew day is underway. I organise everything else onto the kitchen bench whilst the water is heating up.

Most of the other equipment (cost & space) are existing kitchen items, so as long as I clean them, SWMBO is happy to lend them. 3V, whilst an easier (labour wise) and quicker system, I'd have to find a home for it and fork out equipment for a few extra efficiency points and a little less labour. To be honest, I am happy that my equipment produces great beers, so an upgrade in the cost/space vs time factor isn't on my to do list.

Goomba

 

[seemax]

If you have some type of hoist system life is even easier - lift big post mash , let it drip while you heat your full volume up to mash out 76C+ , lower the bag back in and stir it up a bit, wait 10min and then relift the bag and let it drain while it heats up to boil.

That's the beauty of BIAB... 1 pot, 1 bag... if you're chasing a few %'s of efficiency just use a little for grain to compensate.... and make sure you adjust your water profile.

 

[6tri6ple6]

thanks for your replies. i think i might go and get charlie papazians book and explore his lauter tun idea a little further. Mash in my pot and sparge in my bucket. Goomba, i like the 2 colander sparge idea. Something else to think about or maybe adapt to my equipment.
I do love the simplicity of the biab method though and if the mash/lauter process isnt as simple for me and my equipment then i might go back to biab anyway.

Cheers

Richard

 

[QldKev]

With my 100L BIAB system I use a second 82L keg (used to be my main pot) as a sparge vessle.

I just lift the bags (I use 2 bags in my 140L pot) and drop them into the 82L keg, ensuring the tops cannot let grain out. I then dump HWS water over the bags to sparge. (I know its only 55c not 77c) I then drain the runnings form the 82L keg (I have a tap on it) and pour into the main kettle.

It means I'm not stuffing around waiting for the bags to drain into the main pot or squeezing the shit out of them, and can get the burners running earlier on the main pot. Makes brew day easy. Also as a bonus I wouldn't be able to fit the full water vol plus grain in a 140L for a 100L batch.

QldKev

 

[6tri6ple6]

If you have some type of hoist system life is even easier - lift big post mash , let it drip while you heat your full volume up to mash out 76C+ , lower the bag back in and stir it up a bit, wait 10min and then relift the bag and let it drain while it heats up to boil.

That's the beauty of BIAB... 1 pot, 1 bag... if you're chasing a few %'s of efficiency just use a little for grain to compensate.... and make sure you adjust your water profile.

or that was the other idea.... i might be able use a block and tackle hoist at my in-laws place and move my brewery over there.


do you get better efficency by doing the mash-out and letting it "drip-dry"?

 

[stux]

or that was the other idea.... i might be able use a block and tackle hoist at my in-laws place and move my brewery over there.


do you get better efficency by doing the mash-out and letting it "drip-dry"?

On my last two BIABs, using a lot of mash time agitation, mashout and squeezing but no sparge I've achieved 93% and 97% mash efficiency

I agitated and reheated the mash every 15 mins over 90 mins.

I use a cake rack on the bottom of the pot so don't bother lifting the bag to heat, just use a lot of agitation

 

[white.grant]

On my last two BIABs, using a lot of mash time agitation, mashout and squeezing but no sparge I've achieved 93% and 97% mash efficiency

Hi Stux

Just out of interest, how did you work out your efficiency figure?

cheers

grant

 

[bcp]

El systemo cheapo, simplo y lazio:
I have two plastic buckets. I put my colander in the bottom of one bucket, dump the used grain bag on top.

Then i just put the second bucket on top of the bag and press. It drains the bag really well.

I'm getting consistently c.80% efficiency, so absolutely no reason for me to sparge.

 

[argon]

If you have some type of hoist system life is even easier - lift big post mash , let it drip while you heat your full volume up to mash out 76C+ , lower the bag back in and stir it up a bit, wait 10min and then relift the bag and let it drain while it heats up to boil.

That's the beauty of BIAB... 1 pot, 1 bag... if you're chasing a few %'s of efficiency just use a little for grain to compensate.... and make sure you adjust your water profile.

When doing a BIAB mashout, you don't need to wait 10 mins at the mashout temp ~76C. That's a layover from mashtun/falsebottom brewing. The 10 minute wait is there for the grain bed to reset prior to lautering. Because in BIAB you don't need the grain bed to set, you don't have to wait the 10min.

The easiest way to perform a BIAB mashout (and to cut the 10mins or more from your brewday) is to heat the pot with the bag and grain still in place, whilst agitating/stirring/pumping the grain (a cake rack is a good idea to keep the bag off the bottom of the pot, preventing scorching upon heat application). Then simply remove the bag once the grain is approximately at mashout temp between 76C and 80C. Once the bag is pulled the heat is continued to be applied, never turngin the heat off, getting you up to the boil. As the entire grain bill has reached mashout temp, enzyme activity has been halted and the sugaz are more easily washed away from the grain... nothing more to be achieved through waiting. Hence the 10min wait is nothing more than a waste of time.

 

[felten]

or that was the other idea.... i might be able use a block and tackle hoist at my in-laws place and move my brewery over there.


do you get better efficency by doing the mash-out and letting it "drip-dry"?

I can't speak for what methods give better efficiency, because I've always used the same method. It yeilds good efficiency so I haven't looked at changing it. I'm using a 45L kettle and no sparge step.

After the mash rest is over, I apply heat directly to the mash and keep stirring it until it reaches 75c (~10-15m of stirring). After that I hoist the bag with a pulley and suspend it over the kettle until it reaches boiling. Then I'll shift the bag over to a 20L pail and let it drip there for ~45m or so, take the runnings (drippings?), add them back into the kettle with at least 30mins of boiling to go.

I think that's close to the cookie cutter no-sparge process that TB has talked about previously. Though some of the durations are a little arbitrary, or just because I'm busy doing other stuff in between.

 

[6tri6ple6]

I can't speak for what methods give better efficiency, because I've always used the same method. It yeilds good efficiency so I haven't looked at changing it. I'm using a 45L kettle and no sparge step.

After the mash rest is over, I apply heat directly to the mash and keep stirring it until it reaches 75c (~10-15m of stirring). After that I hoist the bag with a pulley and suspend it over the kettle until it reaches boiling. Then I'll shift the bag over to a 20L pail and let it drip there for ~45m or so, take the runnings (drippings?), add them back into the kettle with at least 30mins of boiling to go.

I think that's close to the cookie cutter no-sparge process that TB has talked about previously. Though some of the durations are a little arbitrary, or just because I'm busy doing other stuff in between.

i havent done a mash out on either batches. Maybe this might contribute to my poor efficency. 63% and then 58%. Perhaps the cake rack is the next step. My kettle is a 40L crab cooker with a colander insert but i think that the colander might not be big enough to submerge the entire grainbed. I guess i could try on brew day and then slip a cake rack in if it doesnt fit.

 

[Strutter]

i havent done a mash out on either batches. Maybe this might contribute to my poor efficency. 63% and then 58%. Perhaps the cake rack is the next step. My kettle is a 40L crab cooker with a colander insert but i think that the colander might not be big enough to submerge the entire grainbed. I guess i could try on brew day and then slip a cake rack in if it doesnt fit.

i use the same pot, my eff was shithouse, dumped the colander and it improved

 

[stux]

Hi Stux

Just out of interest, how did you work out your efficiency figure?

cheers

grant

Those numbers actually come from BeerSmith 2. They're based on both pre and post boil volumes/gravities in the kettle (i double checked them)

The gravity readings were taken after cooling to 20C

The potential extract would've been calculated by BS2 based on the recipe quantities and BS2's recipe database

This is not Brewhouse efficiency which takes into account kettle trub losses

 

[white.grant]

Those numbers actually come from BeerSmith 2. They're based on both pre and post boil volumes/gravities in the kettle (i double checked them)

The gravity readings were taken after cooling to 20C

The potential extract would've been calculated by BS2 based on the recipe quantities and BS2's recipe database

This is not Brewhouse efficiency which takes into account kettle trub losses

Thanks Stux,

I understood that you were talking about extract efficiency as opposed to brewhouse efficiency and 97% in that case is pretty notable. Generally, when you're looking at gravity points per kg of grain the common wisdom looks at 80-90% of the extract potential of the grain as a pretty efficient outcome. How fine do you mill your grain?

Cheers

grant

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

The easiest way to perform a BIAB mashout (and to cut the 10mins or more from your brewday) is to heat the pot with the bag and grain still in place, whilst agitating/stirring/pumping the grain (a cake rack is a good idea to keep the bag off the bottom of the pot, preventing scorching upon heat application). Then simply remove the bag once the grain is approximately at mashout temp between 76C and 80C. Once the bag is pulled the heat is continued to be applied, never turngin the heat off, getting you up to the boil. As the entire grain bill has reached mashout temp, enzyme activity has been halted and the sugaz are more easily washed away from the grain... nothing more to be achieved through waiting. Hence the 10min wait is nothing more than a waste of time.

This is exactly what I do and I hit all the numbers and the process is smooth.
Cheers
BBB

 

[katzke]

The best part of BIAB is it is SIMPLE. That is other then it works just fine the way it is. When you start to complicate it then it is no longer simple. Sparging is an extra step not required for traditional BIAB. It also introduces the potential for disaster from over sparging and the need to watch gravity or pH is important.

So if you can BIAB and want to play with it please do not call it BIAB. Make up some other acronym. If you can not brew with a traditional BIAB method and none of the other enhancements work then please tell us what you are doing. If it were not for some crazy brewer that did not know any better we would not have BIAB today.

 

[stux]

Thanks Stux,

I understood that you were talking about extract efficiency as opposed to brewhouse efficiency and 97% in that case is pretty notable. Generally, when you're looking at gravity points per kg of grain the common wisdom looks at 80-90% of the extract potential of the grain as a pretty efficient outcome. How fine do you mill your grain?

Cheers

grant

I use a 0.9mm gap on my MM2 mill. The trick is i've burnt out the slow speed settings on my cordless drill and so I rip through the grain pretty damn quick. Couple of minutes maybe for 5KG.

So pretty dusty fine grind

cake rack on the bottom, 90 min mash, good agitation with large potato masher ever 15 mins or so, applying a little bit of heat to counteract the small heat loss.

Then ramp up to mashout 75C over 7 mins.

Then let stand for 10 mins (might think about cutting this bit in future)

Raise bag on pulley, start boil.

I squeeze the bag quite vigoourously and get most of the juice out of it by the time I'm at boil, where I take volume/gravity measurements

I would usually leave the bag up for another 30 mins or so to the point where its not yielding any more, and then when its convenient I dump it into a bucket for composting.

I think my grain absorption is about .3L/KG

Final gravity/volume is the one I take at knockout. Would normally concur with the start of boil, unless I boil over!