And that makes 3 - Toyota bails out

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Yeah the royal commission mystifies me too Nev. If some one has evidence of dodgy deals or illegal activities, pass it to the police. If the libs want to bash the unions (as is their way) I just wish they wouldn't do it with my money. Then claim they need to sell off everything they can as a way to finance the country.
 
DJ_L3ThAL said:
Although we need to get serious about more mas scale renreables such as solar thermal, geothermal and even tidal.

Lots of cool biomass ideas to reduce harmful wastes going to landfill and produce energy. But youre right no funding :(

like this ?

http://www.coolplanet.com/

even funded by google... the mind boggles
 
@ stm, I don't disagree with you, what I'm saying is that advantage is relative to what it is valued at.

The seller making 30 bucks can then buy 30/70 of his own product if he so wishes. He has to sell 3 units to make himself enough + margin to afford one of his own gizmos. The buyer saves 250 in his own terms (else why would he buy, you are correct there). But what he has bought he cannot sell for 350, he would maximum sell it for 100, likely less because he doesn't have the reputation the original seller has, the seller retains much of that part of his wealth. Besides, the buyer on-selling would not make money (different to retailer margin, they make money by providing services to the manufacturer - increasing merchantability of their goods with retail skills). However the seller makes those 30 bucks each time.

In the case of your example of an accountant selling his skills to the employer, the employer is making more than what they pay the accountant or it wouldn't be worth it. Alternatively, the accountant enables better extraction of value for the company from other assets, taking a fee for that through better wages or bonus or commission. At that point, you can differentiate between an accountant who is doing what he's told and makes minimum and the one that is consulting to the company and making serious money. You'd have to agree that the latter is wealthier. This is what I mean by relative advantage.
Both accountants are accruing wealth. The company also accrues wealth. But the company accrues a different % of advantage relative to either employee. The employees in turn accrue wealth at different rates. Skill and knowledge of many types is central to it. In real terms, most likely, the wealthier accountant is helping the company leverage extra efficiency from the employment of the other accountant, so he is indirectly taking money off the other guy - i.e., your manager is making money off you, getting wealthier. If he didn't, you might be able to do say 50% as well for the company as he is making you do but you'd also be able to charge more while the company makes less money. Hence why companies tend to merge business to bring partnered skills under the one umbrella to leverage off each other.

Essentially I maintain that wealth is relative to another. I might be wealthy relative to a couple of people and poor compared to 97. That makes me the 98th wealthiest. To gain advantage I will have to use some skills to make more than others, either increase my advantage on the 2 poorer than me (mostly organic growth) or try to gain additional advantage (acquisition/contracting to bigger and competition etc) on those richer than me. In the process, might be that everybody gets a little richer with time but that only goes so far as the basic resource you are exploiting. If we run out of manpower or energy or natural resources then to get wealthier we are basically taking each other's share to keep climbing the wealth ladder. Make sme think that capitalists have the best understanding of a finite market, growth equaling shrinkage elsewhere.

PS: also brings to mind 'what so generosity'. I'd say generosity has types. There is cooperative generosity where you don't press your competitive advantage to generate wealth for yourself. I.e., selling the gizmo for 70. Then there is charity, which is giving a discount, on your labour charge for example. Then there is stupidity, where you discount deep enough to be below actual acquisition cost. That is a reduction in value for your goods. Selling for 80 instead of 100 is a competitive discount, not generosity.
 
Gelding said:
like this ?

http://www.coolplanet.com/

even funded by google... the mind boggles
Hmm, looks like they might use crops that are also a food source, very bad with starving nations around pulling up wheat or corn crops to convert them into fuel for cars.

There are algae based trials at the moment which obviously doesn't compete with food, is readily available and assists in things like wastewater treatment environments. Or even in developing nations where they have corn crops and leave the husks lying around to rot in fields, that biomass can be used to produce energy.

It's simply amazing how noone has just taken these technologies, pumped millions (even billions) into them and made it a world renowned product. Guess those oil/gas pigs do in fact have ultimate control.
 
DJ_L3ThAL said:
Hmm, looks like they might use crops that are also a food source, very bad with starving nations around pulling up wheat or corn crops to convert them into fuel for cars.

There are algae based trials at the moment which obviously doesn't compete with food, is readily available and assists in things like wastewater treatment environments. Or even in developing nations where they have corn crops and leave the husks lying around to rot in fields, that biomass can be used to produce energy.

It's simply amazing how noone has just taken these technologies, pumped millions (even billions) into them and made it a world renowned product. Guess those oil/gas pigs do in fact have ultimate control.
Have you ever filled a diesel car up with canola from a supermarket? I brought a $1000 diesel mazda 626 because I read somewhere of someone doing it. It cost me a fortune to do it but it worked and in the middle of winter.
We have everything to lead the world in renewable technology but our leaders are too worried about their ideology and getting the people they don't like. So they don't do what is best for the country.
for example solar thermal technology developed at Newcastle Uni by David Mills went to the USA because they couldn't get $42m funding to make it comercial here.
How much did they put into that mythical carbon capture and storage?

as an edit the only solar thermal setup I have seen up close doesn't work. But my cynical opinion is that it was not meant to work.
 
DJ_L3ThAL said:
Hmm, looks like they might use crops that are also a food source, very bad with starving nations around pulling up wheat or corn crops to convert them into fuel for cars.

There are algae based trials at the moment which obviously doesn't compete with food, is readily available and assists in things like wastewater treatment environments. Or even in developing nations where they have corn crops and leave the husks lying around to rot in fields, that biomass can be used to produce energy.

It's simply amazing how noone has just taken these technologies, pumped millions (even billions) into them and made it a world renowned product. Guess those oil/gas pigs do in fact have ultimate control.

I think the Cooplanet idea is not to use food crops, but the waste produced from their growth. This means corn cobs, coconut shells, palm fonds. It can also mean growth of non-food crops such as bamboo, flax or hemp and yes algae. These are rapid growing short cycle crops. I like the process in the link because it also produces carbon (biochar) which can be recycled back into the soil, hence the carbon negative fuel.

You are quite correct in that food to fuel is uneconomic as well as unethical....
 
I'd argue the loser is the other suppliers. If you sell enough product to make $1 million, then you've probably taken around $3 million worth of sales away from the other suppliers. If your product sells well because it's cheap, that might be $10 million away from the competitors. If you've actually created demand with your product, then it's taking away money from all other potential markets the customers would have spent that money on. So the losers are the suppliers that would have made the money, had your product never existed.
 
And wealth is relative. If say you lived in a small town where most people where on welfare and you worked an could afford a new SS Commodoore you would be seen as wealthy. Move to a capital city affluant suburb with the same car you would not be seen as wealthy.

If you lived in an affluant suburb and your house was worth $1m it does not mean your wealthy if you sold it but had to spend the same amount on a new house. If you sold it and moved to a small town and only paid $300,000 for a house you would be seen as wealthy.
 
Ducatiboy stu said:
And wealth is relative. If say you lived in a small town where most people where on welfare and you worked an could afford a new SS Commodoore you would be seen as wealthy. Move to a capital city affluant suburb with the same car you would not be seen as wealthy.

If you lived in an affluant suburb and your house was worth $1m it does not mean your wealthy if you sold it but had to spend the same amount on a new house. If you sold it and moved to a small town and only paid $300,000 for a house you would be seen as wealthy.
Thank you for this pearl of wisdom Stu.

But wealth can be measured in terms of $ of net worth.

US dollars is the global currency of measurement and the usual basis for comparison.
 
DJ_L3ThAL said:
Hmm, looks like they might use crops that are also a food source, very bad with starving nations around pulling up wheat or corn crops to convert them into fuel for cars.

There are algae based trials at the moment which obviously doesn't compete with food, is readily available and assists in things like wastewater treatment environments. Or even in developing nations where they have corn crops and leave the husks lying around to rot in fields, that biomass can be used to produce energy.

It's simply amazing how noone has just taken these technologies, pumped millions (even billions) into them and made it a world renowned product. Guess those oil/gas pigs do in fact have ultimate control.
Actually, converting food sources into fuel is exactly what is happening in places like Brazil. Using bio fuels is creating a shortage of food crops.

People have taken advantage of these technologies but for a number of reasons they haven't taken off. Of course there is big oil ensuring that the technology is being drip fed, govt ensuring that they support big business, but also people like you and me that don't want to pay $3/litre for fuel when we can get oil based fuel for $1.50/litre. depsite whatever idealistic socialist agenda we may espouse on the internet.
 
practicalfool said:
If we run out of manpower or energy or natural resources then to get wealthier we are basically taking each other's share to keep climbing the wealth ladder. Make sme think that capitalists have the best understanding of a finite market, growth equaling shrinkage elsewhere.
In a true capitalist market, this drives innovation into new markets. So for example, as oil becomes scarce, people will look for energy from other sources, such as bio fuels, solar, nuclear etc. But also in a true capitalist market, you need to get that startup capital from somewhere. The free market assesses that risk and decides whether it will fund you or not. In most cases, unless the return on investment is high, you won't get that capital.

So going back to subsidies: people then use the Govt to derisk the venture and ensure there is some return on investment. Which is why there are far more subsidies out there then just the car industry. The govt knows if the new business can succeed, jobs will be created and they will recieve revenue back as taxes through business tax, income tax nd GST amongst others. So for a relatively small amount of subsidy, the upside can be quite large.
 
tavas said:
Actually, converting food sources into fuel is exactly what is happening in places like Brazil. Using bio fuels is creating a shortage of food crops.

People have taken advantage of these technologies but for a number of reasons they haven't taken off. Of course there is big oil ensuring that the technology is being drip fed, govt ensuring that they support big business, but also people like you and me that don't want to pay $3/litre for fuel when we can get oil based fuel for $1.50/litre. depsite whatever idealistic socialist agenda we may espouse on the internet.

You wouldn't even be paying $1.50 per litre if it were not for the tax the government charges you. Crude oil is about $105 US$/barrel which is only A$0.75 per litre ;) (though of course there are other costs though the vast majority of the markup is tax).


Who Takes What out of our $1.478?
Petrol-Breakdown_4.gif
1 litre of petrol consists of:

Bullet_SQ_R2.gif
13.445 cents GST
Bullet_SQ_O2.gif
38.143 cents in excise
Bullet_SQ_Y2.gif
1.2 cents for the service station (Note: The credit card companies get more)
Bullet_SQ_G2.gif
70.21 cents Crude oil (based on today's price and today's exchange rate)
 
Of course. I never said the tax levied was fair. :D

But then again, without taxes, who pays for the roads, schools, hospitals, social welfare arts? The money has to come from somewhere.

So again, in a true capitalist market, it would be from private enterprise on a user pays system. But that would disadvantage the poor, so govt steps in to collect from everyone and try to redistribute back to level the playing field. So without your 50c tax (in the above fuel example), you wouldn't have a Medicare system, Centrelink or Govt backed bank deposits.
 
This becomes a political debate, left or right wing for which the balance is theoretically chosen by the people in a democratic government system.

Not worth getting heated about. Else might get attacked by pepper spray in parliament ;)
 
What I have noticed with wealth distribution i.e. someone who drives a luxury car and lives in an affluent suburb, compared to someone driving a clapped out old banger living in the least desirable suburb,
The one living in the least desirable suburb and driving a banger is the easiest one to wrest money from.
 
Yep, and thats always the question: How much govt intervention should there be? In a true free market, you have none, but that would never work, just as in a true socialist economy, you have no private enterprise.

Where all of this falls down is people. We are corrupt, greedy, jealous etc. So where true market forces would see innovation you have corrupt people ensuring new technologies get put on hold.

And in Australia our problem is apathy. We simply don't care about govt, we expect they will give us things without understanding that govt money is not free money. We don't care for policy and only listen to the first 10secs of a press release hence why we now get sound bites and the 24hr news cycle.

We deserve to have the politicians we have. Labor, Liberal, Greens, Independents, it makes no difference.

Edit: bit about parties on the end.
 
"people get the governments they deserve" is the cliche'.
 
wide eyed and legless said:
I would hate to go to the pub with some of the posters on this thread,we would have nothing to argue about.
Alas, we'd drink a lot of good beer.
 

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