And that makes 3 - Toyota bails out

[wide eyed and legless]

Macquarie, is renown for the exploitation of employees, nervous breakdown or leave.
But if you can stand the pressure big rewards if the goals are achieved.

 

[schrodinger]

Large multi-national companies are different, they are not a person.

Sadly, the US Supreme Court disagrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

It's the most absurd decision I've seen in my lifetime. Persons have rights because they have the realistic ability to be responsible for respecting those same rights in others. Corporations, by contrast, exist to devolve responsibility from shareholders to a board, and even the board are shielded by corporate liability law from bearing personal responsibility for the corporation's actions.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

That's insane.

 

[yankinoz]

The need for us to be involved in 'the wold economy' is squarely to blame.....
if we had no imports produced in countries with disgustingly low wages and poor conditions then the Australian car industry would be as strong as ever.
So would every other industry that has gone down or is sliding down the gurgler.

**** the world economy, why do we need to drag our arses down to the low living standards of developing countries to feel good about ourselves.
Stop importing shit, make it here, sell it here and everybody has a job, a house and money in their pocket, not just the industry fat cats and politicians.

Australian wages are exceptionally high, but not so much in the car industry, which pays quite well in many countries. German car workers are paid more, about USD 40/hour. US car workers cost employers more than Australian workers, thanks in large part to US firms paying $15,000 p.a. or more for health insurance for each of their workers. Japan is close or not far behind Australia, depending on the exchange rate. Koreans are a little lower. Even Mexican car workers, whose labor goes into many parts for US cars, do pretty well.

But you're right about a great many commodities. Look at Aussie furniture and tinned fruit. Carnage and imports.

And you may be prophetic about cars if Chinese-made ones improve their engineering and reputation.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Why do you think big corporations can get away with so much. Its because the people who run them know that there not liable, unless they make a deliberate criminal decision.

 

[yankinoz]

Sadly, the US Supreme Court disagrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

It's the most absurd decision I've seen in my lifetime. Persons have rights because they have the realistic ability to be responsible for respecting those same rights in others. Corporations, by contrast, exist to devolve responsibility from shareholders to a board, and even the board are shielded by corporate liability law from bearing personal responsibility for the corporation's actions.

I agree completey, as do many in the US. Disastrous decision by the Court.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I feel for the component manufacturers, some of the investments they have made in machinery, millions of dollars in some cases, those machines now are only worth scrap value.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yep. Looks like Tony has to find another 50,000 jobs on top of the 1 million he has already promised.

 

[tavas]

The need for us to be involved in 'the wold economy' is squarely to blame.....
if we had no imports produced in countries with disgustingly low wages and poor conditions then the Australian car industry would be as strong as ever.
So would every other industry that has gone down or is sliding down the gurgler.

**** the world economy, why do we need to drag our arses down to the low living standards of developing countries to feel good about ourselves.
Stop importing shit, make it here, sell it here and everybody has a job, a house and money in their pocket, not just the industry fat cats and politicians.

With no imports that would mean no capital inflow. So to recoup costs that $35,000 Commodore suddenly becomes $100,000-$200,00 so that the manufacturer can break even on capital.

Then you see people in other countries paying $15k for a Hyundai and wonder why? Except you won't see that because without imports you won't have an international newspaper, tourism or internet.

 

[Goose]

that's what I was saying. Someone is doing the work. Growth just means more people are working for the same business. Wealth isn't created out of thin air.


Ok not necessarily poorer, but it is all relative.

So, where does the money come from when the stock market rises , or where does it go when it falls ?

 

[schrodinger]

So, where does the money come from when the stock market rises , or where does it go when it falls ?

Most of the ups and downs of the stock market involve imaginary wealth, created by wishing it into existence, or destroyed by fearing it out of existence. Where's the money created in the housing bubble of the mid 2000s? Nowhere. It never existed. Unfortunately, everybody already spent it.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Well, it's not real money like cash, it is share value.

 

[Goose]

Well, it's not real money like cash, it is share value.

which can be converted to cash during trading hours by picking up the phone to a broker and placing a sell order.....

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Of course it can, but your getting the value of the share at that moment, if half the share holders decided to sell at a given time, then the share price drops dramatically, share values are only on paper not real money. If for instance a company floated and set a value on shares and a buying frenzy ensued the value of those shares would go up (supply and demand)therefore making the value of the company worth a lot more than what it is really worth in real money.

 

[Goose]

Of course it can, but your getting the value of the share at that moment, if half the share holders decided to sell at a given time, then the share price drops dramatically, share values are only on paper not real money. If for instance a company floated and set a value on shares and a buying frenzy ensued the value of those shares would go up (supply and demand)therefore making the value of the company worth a lot more than what it is really worth in real money.

well, the question is how do you define "the value of the company worth a lot more than what it is really worth in real money".

how do you reckon Twitter with a market cap of 20 billion and a revenue of 200 Million, can be "valued" the same way as a mining company such as Anglo American, also with a market cap of 20 billion, but has revenues of 16 Billion ?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Its called "Accounting"

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Before a company is floated a value is put on the said company, for instance Royal Mail was floated at a value of 2,05 billion pounds it is now worth (on paper 3.73 billion pounds)it all comes back to supply and demand, my father bought shares in a mining company some years ago for about 20 cents that company while mining for tin found tantelite, those shares jumped virtually overnight to $16 a share, without anyone really knowing what amount of tantelite was found or the vale after mining, it is all a gamble.

 

[pedleyr]

You have fallen prey to the Industrial Capitalist....

We can make everything we need, including electronics, we don't because we can't compete with cheap imports
If we can't consume everything we produce then we are producing too much...I'm sure there are mining companies with plenty enough money to create a nice electronics industry in our country.

Protectionism, isolationism, banana republicism...whatever you want to call it has only ever been debunked by the fat rich pricks who aren't happy with economic prosperity, your own words hail the problem....
increased economic prosperity. Why do you need to increase economic prosperity....I for 1 am happy with plain ol' prosperity.

I am not against the people of Bangladesh or any other country increasing their standard of living, hell good luck to them, but if we want to diversify and upskill we need to be doing for ourselves not buying the cheap results of others.

The biggest problem I see is that we have been fed the bullshit of industrialism and consumerism for so long we no longer feel offended by it.
I'm sorry I'm offended everytime I enter a shop and have to be subjected to more and more products being made in horrendous conditions by the poor of the world while rich pricks increase their profit margin and kick more and more aussie into the jobless gutter...but don't worry I'm sure it will turn out ok.

No mate I've fallen prey to actually having a clue what I'm talking about.

Why is it a bad idea for us to produce what we are good at, the Bangladeshis to produce what they're good at, the Nigerians to produce what they're good at, the Americans to produce what they're good at, and each of us just sell the excess we don't need to each other?

If we can produce X product by putting Y inputs in, but producing Z product costs us Yx2 inputs, aren't we better producing 3 of X and selling the one X we don't need in exchange for one Z with someone who can produce Zs for cheap? That way with Yx3 inputs we end up with goods that would take Yx4 inputs for us to produce.

That's what it boils down to.

Guess who ends up paying more for the Zs under your scenario? Hint: it sure as shit is not the rich people who control the capital (and whose control is only strengthened under your ideal world due to fewer competitors).

 

[pedleyr]

I wasn't looking for a way to compete.....its not possible for us to compete. Thats the whole point.

But we can compete.

We are a developed economy with an educated and wealthy population. Use that to focus our output.

We can't compete by doing what we've done for 50 or 100 years previously, with that I'll agree, but we have the ingredients to work smarter and add more value than third world economies.

If that means we don't subsidise industries that can't compete I can live with that. Spend that money on training or re-skilling. If some factory worker is worried about his job going to China, I sympathise and say that we should help him up-skill. If he refuses to do so for whatever reason then I say too bad.

Nobody has any natural right to wealth or prosperity, we are a wealthy country because our ancestors did things differently to our friends in third world countries. We need to continue to do that and be a step ahead.

I'm not saying "**** the blue collar workers", I'm saying that we should invest in training them to do jobs that the Bangladeshis can't do rather than propping up uncompetitive industries.

 

[pedleyr]

You cant creat wealth...you just acquire it from somewhere else. You have to get the money from someone. As someone becomes wealthy someone else has to become poorer

No, you acquire money from someone else.

You cannot just acquire wealth, think about it: I want wealth. John has wealth. Say it's worth $100 million. I approach John and say I'll buy your wealth, here is $100 million in cash!

Have I actually acquired wealth I didn't have? No - I already had $100 million in cash, I was already wealthy. I just converted cash into (say) shares or property.

The way most people create wealth (note, not the way most wealth is created - just how most people do it) is by growing their business.

If I start a business and grow it into something that makes me $1 million per year, I'm probably going to meet the definition of wealthy. Who have I acquired that wealth from?

Not my employees, who I pay wages to. They give me labour in return. If they thought their labour was worth more they'd probably work for someone else (simplification to make the point). But I've not acquired wealth from them.

Not my customers, who I provide goods and services to at a price they obviously consider fair (because they pay it, so they obviously think that they are getting a product worth at least whatever it is they pay). They give me $100 and I give them something they consider to be worth $100 in return, so at worst there is no net change in wealth and at best we're both wealthier (because I think the product is worth less to me and they more to them).

Not my competition, from whom I have received nothing and with whom I've never transacted.

Not my suppliers, who I've paid money for their products at a price they're obviously happy with (same logic as customers).

Where then?