And that makes 3 - Toyota bails out

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Goose said:
If they are citizens, is that an issue ? As far as I know laws exists such that foreigners can't buy existing properties, only new ones off a plan. This means also that when they come to sell , it must be to an Aussie citizen.

Goose said:
I'm not sure about this either - pretty certain i know a few people in the real estate industry or from Asia that have numerous stories about non-Australian citizens buying residential land quite freely. That link basically just says they all get reviewed. I'm sure they do, then get accepted about 5.3 secs later. I'd suggest that the agents handling the sales might have a vested interest in knowing how to fill out the applications to ensure they get accepted - 2% commission on a $20mill block of flats is a decent incentive.
And how much of it's dirty money? I coincidently was told yesterday a friend of my FIL sold an investment property to a newly arrived Chinese couple for $1.2mil. They paid cash. The father of one of them is a mid-level bureaucrat in China - and the money wasn't from his weekly wage. That's not the first time i've heard that kinda thing. Hey, i'm sure one of them's a student, so it's all ok? Well at least there's a chance that the couple will decide to stay in Australia & become citizens.
I'm ok with some Foreign Investment. However, i'm not convinced of the overall benefit to the community in the long-term with widespread foreign ownership of residential land. I'm happy for anyone of any background to come here to live, but kinda think residential land should only be going to those with a real stake in our country, at least a PR, not just some cash.
I'm sure it's more complicated, and there's probably good reason to have a little foreign ownership of residential land, but to me it generally seems to be the height of stupidity to allow such open freedom or lame obstacles to foreign ownership of this precious resource.

Sorry for getting a little ranty - but the residential thing really gets my goat.
 
technobabble66 said:
I'm not sure about this either - pretty certain i know a few people in the real estate industry or from Asia that have numerous stories about non-Australian citizens buying residential land quite freely. That link basically just says they all get reviewed. I'm sure they do, then get accepted about 5.3 secs later. I'd suggest that the agents handling the sales might have a vested interest in knowing how to fill out the applications to ensure they get accepted - 2% commission on a $20mill block of flats is a decent incentive.
And how much of it's dirty money? I coincidently was told yesterday a friend of my FIL sold an investment property to a newly arrived Chinese couple for $1.2mil. They paid cash. The father of one of them is a mid-level bureaucrat in China - and the money wasn't from his weekly wage. That's not the first time i've heard that kinda thing. Hey, i'm sure one of them's a student, so it's all ok? Well at least there's a chance that the couple will decide to stay in Australia & become citizens.
I'm ok with some Foreign Investment. However, i'm not convinced of the overall benefit to the community in the long-term with widespread foreign ownership of residential land. I'm happy for anyone of any background to come here to live, but kinda think residential land should only be going to those with a real stake in our country, at least a PR, not just some cash.
I'm sure it's more complicated, and there's probably good reason to have a little foreign ownership of residential land, but to me it generally seems to be the height of stupidity to allow such open freedom or lame obstacles to foreign ownership of this precious resource.

Sorry for getting a little ranty - but the residential thing really gets my goat.
There is no real benefit to the community if foreign owners of residential property aren't fully embedded in the local economy. The one thing they are certainly doing is inflating prices -- speculating up the value of land, then taking their profits home. In the end all this does is deflate the value of everything else in the local economy (relative to its value in the absence of the asset bubble), most notably incomes. We feel richer because our homes are worth half a million instead of 100k, but this wealth is an illusion unless you cash out of the system (i.e., move to a cheaper market).

The counterargument that foreign investors are fueling the economy by providing capital for construction, maintenance, etc, is also an illusion: this supposedly beneficial capital flow would be greatest if every property owner were non-resident, but then all the locals would be sending their income to foreigners as rent instead of accumulating some principal here, where at least it would protect them from higher rents in retirement.

Foreign investors are keen on Aussie property for the same reason they're keen on US government bonds -- it's a fairly safe investment; i.e., it's a fairly safe way to turn money into more money without doing any actual work. As long as immigrants keep pouring in here, which they will as long as Australia remains far wealthier than the average country, residential property will always be biased in favour of demand over supply, and prices will rise as high as speculators (foreign or domestic) want them to.

Governments, left or right, will never do anything to change this -- if they shut down immigration, the economy would lose a heap of cheap labor, and if they blocked foreign investment, the property bubble would collapse. In either case the economy would eventually be fine, but only after a long period of painful readjustment that would cost the pollies their jobs. And the lesson would still not be learnt. See: USA, 2007-present.
 
Ducatiboy stu said:
Yep Capitalists desire growth. They see it as the only way. Its pure greed. If your company does not keep growing its seen as a failure. When growth hits the wall they look at other areas to find growth....look at facebook and other social media type setups...when the growth stops and declines there is a "need" to find a new area of growth. There is only so much money going around and all that is happening is it is being shifted around so " someone" can make money. Same goes for cars. We are constantly being told we need new cars for the sake of a new car. Do you really need a new car, honestly, do you "need" a new car.
The great thing about the free market is that it is your choice. If you don't want to buy a new car, don't buy one.

Wealth is created by growth and markets - actually created. It is not a matter of someone becoming wealthy at someone else expense.

When you have socialism or crony capitalism, then you are right - a government decides how to shift a limited amount of wealth around and the inefficiencies actually reduce overall wealth. An example is where a govt decides to subsidise one industry at the expense of taxpayers and other industries. The Aust motor vehicle manufacturing industry being an example.
 
stm said:
Wealth is created by growth and markets - actually created. It is not a matter of someone becoming wealthy at someone else expense.
Can you explain how wealth is created, other than by value being added (ie work being done), or value being extracted from a natural source (ie mining)?
 
It is simply by adding value, specifically: production of a good or service that is value-adding, ie, taking inputs and converting them into output with value greater than the sum of the individual parts. Production of a motor vehicle in Australia is not value-adding.
 
You cant creat wealth...you just acquire it from somewhere else. You have to get the money from someone. As someone becomes wealthy someone else has to become poorer
 
Liam_snorkel said:
The same could be said about negative gearing on domestic property investments.
Agree. It just distorts investment (away from productive investment eg in factories and other commercial properties, to residential property).
 
Sure you can create wealth, print more money.

1 Australian Dollar equals
19019.80 Vietnamese Dong

:p
 
stm said:
It is simply by adding value, specifically: production of a good or service that is value-adding, ie, taking inputs and converting them into output with value greater than the sum of the individual parts. Production of a motor vehicle in Australia is not value-adding.[/size]
that's what I was saying. Someone is doing the work. Growth just means more people are working for the same business. Wealth isn't created out of thin air.

wide eyed and legless said:
You create wealth by acquisition, doesn't necessarily mean some one else becomes poorer.
Ok not necessarily poorer, but it is all relative.
 
Ducatiboy stu said:
Same goes for cars. We are constantly being told we need new cars for the sake of a new car. Do you really need a new car, honestly, do you "need" a new car.
I know a few people who think they do. Case in point a guy at my work. His car is just on 3 years old, I remember when he bought it, his kids have moved out of home so it's only him & his wife, and he only uses it to drive 6km to work and back, the weekly shopping, and the occasional trip to the inlaws. He is getting a new car next week. I ask what for? He says 'Oh just a bit of an upgrade, you know' I ask is there anything wrong with your old car? He says 'no it runs like new and it's very comfortable'. My mind boggles. Some people have more money than sense I guess.
 
Ducatiboy stu said:
You cant creat wealth...you just acquire it from somewhere else. You have to get the money from someone. As someone becomes wealthy someone else has to become poorer
Money is not wealth.
 
Liam_snorkel said:
Ok not necessarily poorer, but it is all relative.
Someone once said: The vice of capitalism is that it makes everyone better off unequally, the virtue of socialism is that it makes everyone poorer equally.
 
phoneyhuh said:
I know a few people who think they do. Case in point a guy at my work. His car is just on 3 years old, I remember when he bought it, his kids have moved out of home so it's only him & his wife, and he only uses it to drive 6km to work and back, the weekly shopping, and the occasional trip to the inlaws. He is getting a new car next week. I ask what for? He says 'Oh just a bit of an upgrade, you know' I ask is there anything wrong with your old car? He says 'no it runs like new and it's very comfortable'. My mind boggles. Some people have more money than sense I guess.
But the great thing is that someone is going to buy his old car from him because the buyer values it more highly than the seller. It is a voluntary transaction that is a win-win (both parties are better off), as all voluntary transactions tend to be (not a Ducatistu-style win-lose).
 
stm said:
Someone once said: The vice of capitalism is that it makes everyone better off unequally, the virtue of socialism is that it makes everyone poorer equally.
Famous quip about Communism
"We pretend to work while they pretend to pay us".
 
heh, yeah. I'm not opposed to people getting others to do the work for them, there has to be incentives otherwise nothing would get done. Small to medium businesses do just that. The employers work their butts off establishing a business model, getting it up and running, maintaining cash flow, and that is genuine value adding.
Large multi-national companies are different, they are not a person. They are purely profit driven, and if there is a way to exploit a resource (material or human), niche, or loop-hole for profit, they will do just that, regardless of the effect is has on others. Shareholders aren't interested in (or aware of) the well-being of 3rd parties who may be affected by the company's actions.
 
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