And that makes 3 - Toyota bails out

[yum beer]

I was under the impression all the industrial capitalists live in China, the only way we can compete in manufacturing in this country is with a substantial drop in wages and then backdate it.
When China does start to recover doesn't mean we will be sweet again, America is on the sideline with its massive gas resources ready to undercut us, and the same with their coal.
If we don't have economic prosperity how are we going to fund schools and hospitals, they are in dire straits as it is, if you go to a hospital it would be more than likely that the person looking after you would be from overseas, whether it be nurse, doctor, surgeon, anaesthetist or specialist.
Should their wages drop they will be off to somewhere where the wages are better, you might think that goods we are buying from developing nations are horrendous, but to those people they are in luxury and can put food on the table, 2012 saw 70,000,000 Chinese people going on overseas holidays, we may have to get Hogan back and do another tourist ad "Throw another prawn in the wok"

So we should drop the wages of workers to keep manufacturing but still pay doctors the same..........

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Well you were looking for a way to compete in manufacturing, I am sure that the mining companies if they were to open up electronic factories it wouldn't be in this country they have shareholders to think of no shareholders = no jobs.

 

[yum beer]

I wasn't looking for a way to compete.....its not possible for us to compete. Thats the whole point.

 

[stm]

(1) I'm sorry I'm offended everytime I enter a shop and have to be subjected to more and more products being made in horrendous conditions by the poor of the world
(2) while rich pricks increase their profit margin and kick more and more aussie into the jobless gutter...but don't worry I'm sure it will turn out ok.

1. Bangladeshis are working in clothing factories in their droves because it is a hell of a lot better than the subsistence farms they came from. Same with all those Chinese lining up to work at Foxconn. We also benefit because we get more for our money.
2. So the alternative is for businesses to be forced to operate at a loss? How is that going to keep us wealthy? Your strategy worked real well in the Soviet Union and is working real well in North Korea...
It is only by businesses making profits that wealth is generated.

 

[stm]

I wasn't looking for a way to compete.....its not possible for us to compete. Thats the whole point.

Agree 100% with you on this. We should not (as a country) be wasting our resources on industries where we can't compete. Therefore, taxpayers should not be subsiding such industries. We should be investing our resources in industries where we can compete - ie, where we can make the most profit.

That's the magic of that evil "profit" that you hate - it tells us where we compete and how we best ensure our prosperity. And you leave it to the free market to do this (because it tends to be planned economies that make decisions to invest in loss making industries and so the downward spiral continues - the free market goes after profits).

Google "comparative advantage".

 

[booargy]

We should put toyota workers on harpoon ships. get some profits returned to this country.

 

[schrodinger]

B. Though I utterly loathe the idiotic free market idolatry of many in the right wing, ...

1. Greed is not the problem -- it's a parameter, i.e., an unavoidable constraint, because humans are involved. Telling humans not to be greedy is like telling the sun not to shine.
Parameters and constraints have bounds, they are not endless....the greed of capital is neverending. You've made a useless point.

3. Isolationism is a dead end now more than ever, however morally upright it may sound. Australia could in theory be self-sufficient, but it would also be pretty poor. The world economy is as you describe because rich people would rather pay less, and there are still poor people willing to take less money to make shit for them. But those rich people were rich before the majority of those jobs were shipped off to Bangladesh, so no, I'm not having myself on.
Yes, those rich people were rich before shipping jobs off to Bangladesh...wasn't that enough for them. Aussie's had jobs, rich pricks were rich. NO. They need to make more money...greed...... Yes you are having yourself on.
How much did you pay for your copy of 'world economy is good for you'.

You're missing my points. First, you and I ARE the rich pricks. Even Aussies who've lost their jobs and are on the dole are rich compared to the 'deshis. Second, I'm not arguing the 'world economy is good for you', but rather that the world economy, and greed, and all the rest are so inevitable, and so far beyond the control of pissed off righteous rich guys, that bitching about it is pointless and useless, and just makes you look pathetic. If you're so offended by the world economy (i.e., reality), then leave it, and go survive off rats in a cave.

Nothing anybody has ever done, in history, has changed the essential character of human beings, which is to provide as much for themselves as possible. Christianity was supposed to change this. It didn't -- the most vociferously Christian people around are American hyper-capitalists. Marxism was supposed to kill off the evil force of greed. What's left of communism and post-communist countries are about as far from that ideal as possible. So nothing is gained by whinging about it and thinking wishfully. Greed, unbounded greed, IS a parameter. Just deal with it.

 

[technobabble66]

... Just because a vehicle might be big doesnt mean its a petrol guzzler. I was easly able to get 9.5l/100km which is pretty good. Sure not as good as a prius bot not that far behind than smaller 4cyl cars...

Fwiw, the automatic Honda I drive gets 6.1L/100km - and that's with me accelerating and braking heavily in the daily commute thru the 'burbs. It gets 5.2L/100km on longer drives. So that's roughly 30-45% more fuel efficient than the Aussie designed one!

I'd be strongly in favour of maintaining the car manufacturers in our country but it's hard to overlook what seems to be a large difference in quality/value.

Germany spends $200 per person compared to our $18-20? Are those figures def correct? If so, it makes you wonder - Germany seem convinced its worth supporting car manufacturing, & their economy seems fairly strong.

I'd stress it's the *overall* cost of production (plus our distance from world markets). Total labour cost is a big one, but also leases, transport, banking/finance, & utilities; and the difficulty/cost of dealing with govt bureaucracy.
For my wife's retail business, labor is a major cost (& working on public holidays? Forget it - ridiculous cost! And yes, her staff would happily work on those days at normal wages if they could), but the cost of the lease is at least as large (if not the largest). On top of that is all the faffing around with BASS, etc.
Is anything likely to be done to reduce land/lease costs? Good luck with that!

The bottom line is businesses are just not encouraged enough here. The return is commonly too little compared to the risk, stress and effort required. Sure some businesses do great and their owners become quite wealthy. The *vast* majority don't, though - they're just working hard to get by week to week.

It's concerning Abbott seems so fixed on using this solely for the purpose of beating unions. It kinda smacks of a preconceived agenda that will be pursued while ignoring all these other issues, so at the end of it we may be still no more competitive. I'm tentatively supportive of the idea of labor reforms, but it's foolish to ignore the other elements.
I can't help but think he's also being a little contradictory: says/implies we need to be more competitive & smarter in manufacturing, esp in more advanced technology, and yet drops the post of the Minister of Science.

2c

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Fwiw, the automatic Honda I drive gets 6.1L/100km - and that's with me accelerating aond braking heavily in the daily commute thru the 'burbs. It gets 5.2L/100km on longer drives. So that's roughly 30-45% more fuel efficient than the Aussie designed one!

Hardly comparing apples.....load up your 1.6 with 4 adults and luggage and see what happens to your fuel economy.

1.6 v 3.8L. Even the 4.1L falcon gets just under 10l/100k. Thats not to bad at all.

 

[technobabble66]

Hardly comparing apples.....load up your 1.6 with 4 adults and luggage and see what happens to your fuel economy.

1.6 v 3.8L. Even the 4.1L falcon gets just under 10l/100k. Thats not to bad at all.

True, though the 4 adults and luggage push it up only about 1.5L/100km. (It's more that the rate of acceleration drops a fraction -only slightly, never been a problem though).
However I'd mainly just drive myself; 1 passenger 20% of the time, 2-3 passengers 10% of the time. So my needs might be quite different to most others.
It def affects my fuel economy, but not by much.

10L/100km might be great for a 4.1L engine, but if a 1.6-2L car fulfills your needs just as well at 6L/100km, the ol' 4.1L ain't lookin so sweet. Obviously not relevant if you need to pull a trailer ;-) However, I think many people have realized these days that they don't need to pull a trailer or drive a large car.

Again: design directives from the top management of ford & Holden seem to be fairly unsupportive of their Aussie operations.

 

[stm]

Actual subsidies:

Aust: US$1885
US: US$166
Germany: US$206
UK: US$22

(all "per vehicle built")

 

[Camo6]

Hardly comparing apples.....load up your 1.6 with 4 adults and luggage and see what happens to your fuel economy.

1.6 v 3.8L. Even the 4.1L falcon gets just under 10l/100k. Thats not to bad at all.

Not to mention the Liquid Petrol Injection Falcon that is capable of producing more power than the equivalent petrol variant (Holden tried but couldn't perfect this system) and a 4cyl Turbocharged Ecoboost Falcon. Both have impressive power and economy and one of the best safety ratings to boot yet weren't brought to the attention of the Australian public. Ford's greatest let down in this country has been its lackadaisical approach to advertising.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes. Ford does shoot itself in the foot sometimes. At least holden saw the small car market and made the Cruze locally.

 

[tavas]

Actual subsidies:

Aust: US$1885
US: US$166
Germany: US$206
UK: US$22

(all "per vehicle built")

Or as per person:
Aus $US18/person
Canada $US100
France $US150
US $260
Sweden $US 330

germany is around the $200 mark.

Stats are fun

http://m.theage.com.au/national/less-support-lower-tariffs-no-industry-20130523-2k3w2.html

 

[mje1980]

Instead of cutting wages, as seems so popular, how about removing the gouging from the various forms of government ?? and mountains of useless red tape

 

[Darren Hayes]

The car industry was a bastion of unions and high wages. Now Abbott and Gina RindPork can look forward to an Australia of the mega rich riding on the backs of the toiling masses of $4 an hour slaves. No problem, feed the slaves with episodes of Dancing with the Stars and Home and Away served out to them on their cheap Chinese TVs from Walmart also staffed by $4 an hour slaves and they will be content, blaming the single mothers on $40 a week for all their problems.

edit: all this information to be channeled to the slaves via Murdoch media. The perfect triumvirate.

Hahahaha, still get a thread moving ole cock . People have wrote novels and you nailed it in half a dozen sentences. As an advocate of Aldi I treasure the asian wars.




typo

 

[Black Devil Dog]

First, you and I ARE the rich pricks.

+1
I remember reading an article back in the late 90's, about wealth distribution around the world.

Basically, if you're gainfully employed in a developed country, you're in the top 5% wealthiest people IN THE WORLD.
It's hard to believe and since that article, things have changed in China and other countries, but still, if you've got a job and you live in Australia, you're a rich *******.
You might not think you are, but by world standards you definitely are.

 

[yum beer]

1. Bangladeshis are working in clothing factories in their droves because it is a hell of a lot better than the subsistence farms they came from. Same with all those Chinese lining up to work at Foxconn. We also benefit because we get more for our money.
2. So the alternative is for businesses to be forced to operate at a loss? How is that going to keep us wealthy? Your strategy worked real well in the Soviet Union and is working real well in North Korea...
It is only by businesses making profits that wealth is generated.

We get more for our money as long as you have a job that puts money in your back pocket.
As for business operating at a loss where did that come from...nothing I said about them running at a loss. And certainly didn't compare anything to Soviet Union or North Korea....did I talk about communism or socialism...I think not.

Agree 100% with you on this. We should not (as a country) be wasting our resources on industries where we can't compete. Therefore, taxpayers should not be subsiding such industries. We should be investing our resources in industries where we can compete - ie, where we can make the most profit.

That's the magic of that evil "profit" that you hate - it tells us where we compete and how we best ensure our prosperity. And you leave it to the free market to do this (because it tends to be planned economies that make decisions to invest in loss making industries and so the downward spiral continues - the free market goes after profits).

Google "comparative advantage".

I don't hate 'profit', never said such a thing. Every business is entitled to make a profit, it is business' need to make increasingly higher and higher profits at the cost of aussie jobs that I'm against.

 

[yum beer]

+1
I remember reading an article back in the late 90's, about wealth distribution around the world.

Basically, if you're gainfully employed in a developed country, you're in the top 5% wealthiest people IN THE WORLD.
It's hard to believe and since that article, things have changed in China and other countries, but still, if you've got a job and you live in Australia, you're a rich *******.
You might not think you are, but by world standards you definitely are.

I'm sure all the workers losing their jobs are glad to hear t is and will be able to sleep better at night. Thank you.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

I'm sure all the workers losing their jobs are glad to hear t is and will be able to sleep better at night. Thank you.

Once they receive their superannuation, holiday pay, long service leave and redundancy packages, then find another job or start their own business, I'm confident most of them will be ok.