And that makes 3 - Toyota bails out

[Liam_snorkel]

I'm not saying "**** the blue collar workers", I'm saying that we should invest in training them to do jobs that the Bangladeshis can't do rather than propping up uncompetitive industries.

that's where innovation (read, investment into research projects) comes in... and we have no science minister. So dumb. We're going to ride the tail of fossil fuels while the only thing keeping industry going is (population) growth. We're making breakthroughs in PV technology and you know where the funding is coming from? China. We should be leading the way by investing in this stuff and selling it to them.

 

[yum beer]

If I start a business and grow it into something that makes me $1 million per year, I'm probably going to meet the definition of wealthy. Who have I acquired that wealth from?


Not my customers, who I provide goods and services to at a price they obviously consider fair (because they pay it, so they obviously think that they are getting a product worth at least whatever it is they pay). They give me $100 and I give them something they consider to be worth $100 in return, so at worst there is no net change in wealth and at best we're both wealthier (because I think the product is worth less to me and they more to them).

You can't be serious. This exactly where your wealth comes from.
Just because they give you $100 for your product does not mean they consider it to be worth $100. Thats just what you charge for it. They need/want it and thats the price they pay.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

In a free market the consumer makes a purchase, if it is something they need they would shop around and make a decision, I am sure after reviewing prices and service they would feel satisfied, and also feel the money was well spent.

 

[Gelding]

yum beer, on 10 Feb 2014 - 6:35 PM, said:

The need for us to be involved in 'the wold economy' is squarely to blame.....
if we had no imports produced in countries with disgustingly low wages and poor conditions then the Australian car industry would be as strong as ever.
So would every other industry that has gone down or is sliding down the gurgler.

**** the world economy, why do we need to drag our arses down to the low living standards of developing countries to feel good about ourselves.
Stop importing ****, make it here, sell it here and everybody has a job, a house and money in their pocket, not just the industry fat cats and politicians.

I think Yum beer lives in Planet Australia. Or is it Planet Young ? B)

North Korea springs to mind. Great standards of living there by example.

 

[Gelding]

Its called "Accounting"

Nope. Its called market value.

Please google "Tulip Bulb Mania" and you will see what I mean.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Where then?

You aquire your" wealth" thru your customers giving you $100 at a time ( or whatever amount you charge ) They are $100 poorer and you are $100 richer. You cannot gain wealth unless someone is prepared to give you money ( or goods). Its not a trade. They need your product and give you money ( or goods ).

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Example, I bought gold in 2008 at around $700/oz was I then poorer because of that purchase, or when I sold in 2012 at $1700/ oz was I richer.

 

[Gelding]

Example, I bought gold in 2008 at around $700/oz was I then poorer because of that purchase, or when I sold in 2012 at $1700/ oz was I richer.

Great trade mate, well done

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Just an example unfortunately.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

If you sold it you would be $1000 richer because someone has to give you money for it. If you dont and the price drops, you havent made any money. Even if you dig it out of the ground someone still needs to give you money ( or goods ). If no one wants it...its worth nothing. Bit like brewing beer. You might brew 10,000ltrs but if no one buys it you wont become wealthy from it.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

that's where innovation (read, investment into research projects) comes in... and we have no science minister. So dumb. We're going to ride the tail of fossil fuels while the only thing keeping industry going is (population) growth. We're making breakthroughs in PV technology and you know where the funding is coming from? China. We should be leading the way by investing in this stuff and selling it to them.

Although we need to get serious about more mas scale renreables such as solar thermal, geothermal and even tidal.

Lots of cool biomass ideas to reduce harmful wastes going to landfill and produce energy. But youre right no funding

 

[pedleyr]

You can't be serious. This exactly where your wealth comes from.
Just because they give you $100 for your product does not mean they consider it to be worth $100. Thats just what you charge for it. They need/want it and thats the price they pay.

That's simply illogical. They have $100 and give it to me in exchange for goods and services, as opposed to spending it on something else or buying from a competitor. If they thought my widget wasn't worth their $100 they'd keep their money - you said that yourself, they want the product. They obviously want it more than their $100.

Goods are worth whatever two people are willing to buy and sell them for.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Stu hit the note on the money thing, as pedleyr I think people missed that was his point.

Wealth comes from financial gain, better known as profit.

EDIT: Stephen Spellberg

 

[pedleyr]

You aquire your" wealth" thru your customers giving you $100 at a time ( or whatever amount you charge ) They are $100 poorer and you are $100 richer. You cannot gain wealth unless someone is prepared to give you money ( or goods). Its not a trade. They need your product and give you money ( or goods ).

This is flat out wrong and I addressed it in my comment.

They get a product worth $100, I get cash. I'm worse off by a product that is worth $100 on the open market, but better off by $100 cash. Vice versa for them. At worst we're even.

It's in fact better than that because I probably wouldn't part with $100 for the product (it's surplus to my needs which is why I'm selling it) and they obviously consider that this product is a better use of their $100 than anything else in our trillion dollars economy that they could buy with it.

Cash and wealth aren't the same thing - who is better off, someone with $5 cash and no food or someone with no cash but enough food for the day that would cost $6 to buy?

 

[pedleyr]

If you sold it you would be $1000 richer because someone has to give you money for it. If you dont and the price drops, you havent made any money. Even if you dig it out of the ground someone still needs to give you money ( or goods ). If no one wants it...its worth nothing. Bit like brewing beer. You might brew 10,000ltrs but if no one buys it you wont become wealthy from it.

This is actually a good example.

In any of the scenarios you give there has been a fair exchange and zero change in wealth measured at market value. Two actors are swapping gold for cash - the net position of each is the same.

The change in wealth happens independently of the transactions (in this instance it happens by the operation of the market for gold).

When you buy a house for $500k, your wealth doesn't go down by $500k because you've forked over $500k.

 

[idzy]

Example, I bought gold in 2008 at around $700/oz was I then poorer because of that purchase, or when I sold in 2012 at $1700/ oz was I richer.

Wealth is not diminished when you invest in something of value such as gold. As an asset it contributes to your wealth. Otherwise many of the wealthy would not be wealthy due to their wealth not consisting of liquid cash.

 

[pk.sax]

Wealth is a relative term used to describe the means required to be affluent. Money/barter, doesn't matter.

Everyone has some skill, they would produce more value from that skill than with other activities they aren't skilled with. The wealthy one would be the one that can produce a lot more tradeable excess value that can be used to acquire what they want in return. Case in point, a corporation doing millions of units of something at a small margin of profit is actually wealthier than a small business doing the same unit at small volume and higher margin. Along with the goods themselves, value includes the risk and tradeability. If your goods are more merchantable due to brand recognition and distribution then that is part of your wealth.

That is how wealth is created/lost. In other words, wealth is advantage. A very human attribute. For someone to gain advantage someone loses some. The loser might just be better off in value of what they own after the transaction but the winner took a greater advantage. That 100$ gizmo quoted above, the seller might be able to knock them out for cheap (ignore material cost, just time and labour) and sell it to someone who would have to spend 5 times the effort to make the same gizmo. Even before the transaction happened, the buyer's means of purchase have less value than the equivalent goods on sale so his 100 bucks is paying for something that is probably worth 70 to the seller, hence furthering the advantage of the seller. Aka generation (strictly transfer) of wealth.

Disclaimer: layman understanding of economics.

 

[stm]

For someone to gain advantage someone loses some.

That's your crucial misunderstanding, with respect. In a free market, with voluntary transactions, both buyer and seller are better off. Look at all the examples given above. Another couple of examples:

1. I have a 50L s/s pot I am not using. I offer it on here for $75. You buy it because you think it is a good price. You are better off because you now have a pot which you value at more than $75. I am better off because I now have $75.

2. I am an accountant with very specialised skills (not really). I have no skills to hunt or grow my own food. Therefore I would starve in the absence of a market. Instead I sell my labour to a company in return for salary. The company is better off because it has the use of my labour, and I am better off because I have money with which to buy food.

That's the genius of the free market.

And in your example, the buyer of the $100 gizmo is better off because he would have otherwise had to spend $350 (5 x $70 in your example) to produce it. So he is wealthier by $250. The seller is of course better off by $30.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Another good example would be paying a builder to renovate your house, you say pay him $25,000 to do whatever is required to spruce up the place and whether you sell it or not, you are more wealthy as your house is worth more. You can extract that wealth through either using the equity to invest somewhere else, or sell it and get more cash for the place than what it was worth before you renovated it.

The other down side of the free market. in context of property, is that your house is only worth what someone will pay. So whatever evaluators tell you will be worth squat if you need to sell it and there are no buyers in the market willing to pay for it. Goes back to supply and demand comments raised in this thread too.

Don't know why this has become such a big deal on here anyway? lol.

 

[niftinev]

it would be better to spend an additional $500milion+ per year on welfare assistance and help the rich get richer (royal commission into the building industry),
jobs for the boys and forgot to tell everyone that we previously had the same thing in the howard government which cost $66 millions (over a hundred today and not one person was charged)

not interested in keeping jobs if they have to help financially unless of course you're a mate, because at the end of the day he says it was Toyotas decision not
ours and we offered them help (yeah, close it down help)

similar with SPC and actually not owned by coke just a major share holder

what about the $20 millions (for advertising and I assume not singos company)to Cadbury, their not australian either but we can help them. Cadbury choc from England tastes better fark......

they have no ******* idea, everything is a level playing field, just members of political parties that make a career out of it at the expense of us people and our country. of course there is no other country/countries that offer help to car or canning industries

just my rant