All In One Brewery...

[Phrak]

Guys, I've been tracking this topic since it's inception - very interesting and exciting!

Prior to reading the topic, I often thought about doing the mash inside a bag, but still using an esky as the mash tun. Once less piece of equipment is certainly appreciated!

So, there's a lot of information and hypotheses in this topic, do we think that we could have some sort of summary post with the details? I'm particularly interested in settling the discussion whether to increase the grain bill or not and but how much. And the one about squeezing the bag to extract the last bit of extract - bad or good?

JS, PP, Stephen, Goat, AndrewQLD, PJ, et all, Thanks for the lively discussions! You've all brought me one step closer to my first AG.

Tim.

 

[wobbly]

Today I did a "Bucket in an Urn" trial run and base on initial results was impressed enough to try again

Equipment

Urn capacity 30 lt with 2400 watt element
Bucket capacity 25lt bucket fermenter with about 20 by 9mm hole drilled in the bottom
Screen was a piece of fibre galls fly wire held in the bottom of the bucket by a metal ring
Pump was a JEBO/Water Master submersable indoor fountain pump 350lt/hr low voltage 12 volt purchased from Bunnings for $12.70
Bucket Dia was 300mm = approx 700mls per cm
Urn was 350 dia = approx 960mls per cm
Bucket susspension rig is simply a 12mm ply wood base plate for the urn to sit on with a couple of vertical arms 900mm long screwed to the base and angle braced back to the base and a removabletop spreader with a couple of notches cut in each end to hold the top of the side supports together

Proceedure

Added 25lt water to urn and heated to 75C and then installed pump and bucket and let temp stabilise to strike temp of 73C
Water vol inside bucket was 21cm or 14.8lt (Beersmith schedule based on 3lt/kg called for 14.68lt at 73.6C)
Added grist of 4.9kgs (2.5kg pils, 1.5kg wheat, 250g carapils, 130g munich, 20g chocolate, 2 cups rice hulls)and stired as normal to break up any dough balls
Placed a couple of sheets of Al Foil on top of mash with about a dozen holes punched in it with the stem of the digital thermometer for the pump to discharge onto
Set urn thermostate to 65C and started to run pump but mash temp was 69C most likely due to not loosing as much heat to grist due to additional thermal mass between bucket and urn walls
Added about 750mls of cold tap water and temp came down to 66.5C with pump running
Mashed for 90 mins and pump outlet constant at 66C through out.
Clearest wort I have ever seen
Lifted bucket and suspended above urn and sparged with 3 lots of 2lts water heated in kitchen kettle to 80C
Had to "field adjust" bucket suspension for last sparge addition so as to get bucket level with top of wort.
Target boil vol as per Beersmityh was 26.5lt actual was 27lt (I plan to add 5 lt of "top up water" as per Beersmith at the end of the boil so that I would have a bit of head space during boil to control any foaming)
Beersmith estimated pre boil SG at 1039 actual was 1040 @ 20C (I gusee it may have been usefull to check the pump discharge SG at the end of the mash just to understand what it was)
Through out the mash the water between the side of the bucket and the side of the urn stayed clear which you would expect due to the sweet wort having a higher SG than the water between the two vessels. So maybe this means that the grist to water ration is closer to 3 to 1 that 5 to 1
Had to "insulate" the side of the urn to help to maintain a rolling boil
Time to do the brew from start of grain crush to wash up was about 5 hours which is about the same as my normal time I think with a bit more organisation this would come down to about 4.5hrs.


What would I do different next time

Improve the urn insulation and possibly think about an Immersion heater to help the boil along
Consider dropping initial water vol to 22lt which would then equate to about 12.5 lt in the bucket giving thicker mash ratio of around 2.6 to 1 need to think about that and would appreciate any comments

If the "Proof of the pudding in the drinking" is satisfactory I will consider converting a 50lt keg to a boiler (3600 watt low wattage element) and maybe improve the bucket design by cutting out the bottom and replacing with say some "termi mesh" or similar






As above I consider the results encourageing enough for me to try again and possible fiddle a bit to improve my proceedures. The main advantage I see is that I can do a full grain brew all in the one vessel

Cheers

Woobly

 

[wobbly]

Further update.

Final vol of boil was 22lt at SG of 1050, Didn't get the boil of I had predicted due to less vigorous rolling boil

Final vol into fermenter was 18lt due to higher than planned trub losses, will use a Muslin hop bag next time to reduce trub loss

Used Beertools Dilution Tool and added 5lt to make up to 23lt. Beertools predicted an SG of 1039 for 23lts Actual SG measured at 1039

Should turn out to be a mid strength beer around 4.4% Al

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[mimerbryg]

@stephen

First is the "Phytase rest" at the 30 deg mark. This is where phytic acid is produced to help adjust the PH of the mash. Pilsener Urquel, in the original days, would use this step to lower the Ph for the mash. Whether you want this in your brew and/or if it would enhance your brew is yet to known.

Another way to adjust your PH is by adding 2 - 5% acidulated malt or sauer malt (5% for a light beer and less for a darker one.) You will not be able to taste it, in the brew.

@woobly

Improve the urn insulation

We use a cheap camping matress. Se pics in post #4
here

Bucket capacity 25lt bucket fermenter with about 20 by 9mm hole drilled in the bottom
Screen was a piece of fibre galls fly wire held in the bottom of the bucket by a metal ring

Instead you can drill a trillion 2,5 mm to 3,5 mm holes in the bucket. As long as you can find place for a new hole: drill it :unsure: .
It is a cheap way, which works fine with your kettle.

Bucket susspension rig is simply a 12mm ply wood base plate for the urn to sit on with a couple of vertical arms 900mm long screwed to the base and angle braced back to the base and a removabletop spreader with a couple of notches cut in each end to hold the top of the side supports together

Here is another one
To hold the rope use a sailboat cam cleat (like this one)
The system is copied from this

But your system look and seem to work fine to me.

Kind regards
Flemming

 

[PistolPatch]

Heading out the door so I'll be as brief as I possible can....

Tim: I wrote a bit of a summary in Post #111 which may be of help. Quite a few 'sub-topics' have developed in this thread. Three most important ones (I think) are:

1. 'Full Volume Brewing - Are there any negative facors?' - (Maltiness is irrelevant to this method of brewing - it's a separate subject so as for having to use more grain, the answer is no. Efficiencies with full volume also seem to be as good or better than normal sparge methods at this stage.) Only questions I can see to be relevant at this stage are overall taste with maybe some emphasis on mouthfeel. Not much data on this at this stage. What little we have is good so far.

2. Full Volume Brewing in a Bag: I'd say this is the simplest method and is very suitable for those who can use gas burner or have a very strong electric hotplate. Tannin is only an issue when you wash a bit of grain over and over again. This is a thing to watch in fly sparging as water is continually running over the grain at the top of the bed. It is not an issue in batch sparging and certainly not an issue in bag brewing. When you squeeze the bag, you are not, 'hosing down' or rinsing the grain so, no worries. This method is also 30 minutes faster than a normal batch sparge.

3. Full Volume Brewing using a Bucket in an Urn: This method requires a little more equipment and is suitable for those using an immersion element where, if a bag were used, it could be burned. Bag could be used if the element that came with the urn were strong enough to acheive a vigorous boil. Wobbly has done a brilliant job of trying this out in his posts immediately above. Good on you Wobbly!

Hope this helps a little Tim with your two main questions.

Stephen: Thanks for another top post mate. Gotta go but one quick question. Do you have any thoughts on what would occurr if you didn't stop for any of the rests? i.e. Just heating the whole mash as fast as possible until it hit your strike temperature?

Thanks and good on you Wobbly!
Pat

EDIT: Didn't have time to check the above this morning so hope the few typos didn't throw anyone.

 

[stephen]

Pat

The phytase rest was to allow the lighter malts eg pilsener to produce this acid (phytic acid) to lower the PH of the mash. More robust beers such as Guinness do not this rest as the roasted malts will help lower the PH. This rest is typically 20 mins.

The protien rest is another rest that is generally used with malts containing large, complex proteins. At this temp Protease goes to working breaking them down. Wheat styles and beers with a high wheat bill can benefit with a protien rest. The only downside to this is that the longer you let the rest go the more protien will be broken down resulting in possible head retention problems.

As with most rests there is a best temp and a range that will work. eg. To say that Beta amylase will only work at 62 or 63 Deg C (can't remember optimum temp) is a bit misleading as it has about a +/- 5 deg range that it will also work. As doa all the rests. So the quicker you can pass through these rest temps on your way to saccharification rest temps the less alteration will occur.

To accuratley predict what will happen is diffcult to say as there are many variables to consider: The Malt bill being the biggest. eg, if you are making a wheat beer or a light pilsener then the slower you raise your temp the better the outcome (possible), using this proccess for a stout may end up with a very astrigent roasty bitterness.

This all theoretical until proven otherwise.

Regards

Stephen

 

[James Squire]

Wobbly, mate, you are a champ!

The above setup is exactly what I had in mind for this! :super: Im pretty close to getting off the marks with this too (finally, renovations really get in the way of brewing!) in fact tonight I have plans to take to the plastic bucket with my drill. Last night I replaced my Urn tap with a ball valve, hopefully tomorrow my immersion element comes in and away I go.

Couple of questions for you first mate,

Did you need to stand the bucket on anything to keep it off the element or did the pond pump handle that for you?

Pond pump was running throughout the entire length of the mash?

Obviously you removed the bucket and grain prior to commencing boil?

How high above wort level did you have the bucket when you rinsed with the kettle water?

What was the achieved efficiency?

Cheers for now mate, but big kudos for a job well done! Here's to the tasting! :beer:

JS

PS Tim, it seems at this early stage of the trials that no excess grain is required based on others' efficiency results. Suprising to me but... perhaps someone else can confirm?

 

[wobbly]

JS re your questions

1. I had the bucket just clear of the element by using 4 SS bolts as "stand offs" mounted on the bottom of the bucket. I can post a picture later if you want.

2. Pond pump ran for entire mash . Including my intial trails about a week ago this pump has now ran for about 4 to 5 hours in 66 to 70C water/wort without issue. I also had about 1.5 to 2 meters of 12mm discharge line on the pump and this was just suspended in the wort between the bucket and the urn wall with only the final discharge end going over the edge of the bucket so heat loss was not an issue. I guess the length of the discharge line increased the pump head a bit so I don't think I was getting the 350lt/hr rate possibly only about half that which was OK. There was no sceince about the length of discharge line it was just the length I had.

3. Yes bucket removed for boil

4. Had the bottom of the bucket just sitting in the wort when sparging/rinsing to stop any HSE. So bucket was height adjusted 3 times , 1st time as per rig, 2nd time raised by turning spreader on side (was a piece of 38 by 50mm) 3rd time was "field adjust" with roll of masking tape. But a sail clamp would be a better solution as you could have infinate adjustment just need to make the support stand a bit diferent.

5. Efficiency according to Beersmith into boiler was 81% and brewhouse eff was 67.4%. I lost more to trub than I planned only allowed 2lt and actual was more like 4 or 5 lt. Next time I will make and use a "muslin" hop bag for the boil. I may also consider replacing the fly wire screen with a piece of Muslin due to finer mesh but then this may block and restrict flow. I read somewhere else on a system like this where there were fine filter pads placed top and bottom in the bucket (mash tube as they called it). From what I could understand of that system the pump outlet discharged into the bottom of the "tube" sort of underletting with the return being out and over the top of the bucket some how at least that was what I understood the description to say. Don't know will think about this a bit more and maybe try it after I see the trub loss results from using the hop bag for the boil.

6. To improve my boil I think I will source an immersion element and do a strong rolloing boil of the first runnings (possibly 30mins) and get the foaming action over and done with and then I believe I will be able to get closer to the final boil vol with my limited urn capacity without having to worry so much about boil overs. After this initial agressive boil I would cut back to a single element for the 60 min hop boil I should also get better hop utilization by being closer to full vol boil

7. For me this has been a cost effective way of setting up what is basically a RIMS system in a single vessel
Second hand 30 lt Urn $90
Slightly damaged 25lt bucket fermenter $15
Pond Pump $12.7
Fly screen and Hose $4
4 SS bolts and nuts $6
Ply wood $7
Total $135 And If I purchase an immersion heater add say another $96 Say all up $240 to $250

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Phrak]

Yep that helps a lot, Thanks Pat and JS.

The only thing I'm stuck on now is how to set this up in Beersmith. Can anyone offer some pointer?

Tim.

 

[James Squire]

Cheers Wobbly,

Will be interesting to see the brewhouse eff once you get on top of the trub losses issue. I was thinking about using standoffs to keep the bucket off the element. A lot less hassle than height adjusting with the frame... I'll probably be using a washing machine pump external to the urn rather than the submersed pond pump (although I do have one of each in the shed!) Hopefully my volumes wont be as much of an issue as my urn is a 40L job.

Oh, not sure whether you've followed the immersion element thread that was around recently but you'll probably do better that $96 by contacting Tobins I believe. I was set to order through them until I found a local supplier that accepted a family trade account to order one in cheaper again for me.

All the best mate,

JS

 

[RobW]

But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?

So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.

I see what you mean now, sort of a continuous step mash?

That would make it an escalator mash then?

 

[wobbly]

JS a few more pictures of the gear.

1st Shows how clear the wort was into the fermenter
2nd Shows the bottom of the bucket, holes and stand off's etc
3rd Metal ring and fly screen
4th Screen in the bottom of the bucket
5th Pump
6th A few cable ties were necessary to hold the 12mm discharge line in situ

The pump was just positioned on the bottom opf the urn sort of wedged between the side of the bucket and he side of the urn








Hope this is of some use

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[mimerbryg]

The only thing I'm stuck on now is how to set this up in Beersmith. Can anyone offer some pointer?

This profile is made, based on measuring data for 5 brews.

You can download the profile directly here
Profile for Nimbus system

Translation of the 'Notes':
25 lrt. Nimbus - RS270: The equipment profile for Lund Tecnics 29 L stainles steelpot (RS270), mounted with insetstrainer, recirculation via pump and distribributioncoil, counterflow chiller and bazooka hopscreen.
The data is based on 5 measuring


The system is for sale here

Kind regards
Flemming

 

[Phrak]

This profile is made, based on measuring data for 5 brews.
<snip>Translation of the 'Notes':
25 lrt. Nimbus - RS270: The equipment profile for Lund Tecnics 29 L stainles steelpot (RS270), mounted with insetstrainer, recirculation via pump and distribributioncoil, counterflow chiller and bazooka hopscreen.
The data is based on 5 measuring

Thanks Flemming! That's roughly the same inputs that I used in my guesstimations. I wasn't too far off the mark

Tim.

 

[James Squire]

Thanks for your kind help once again Flemming.

It's good to have someone around that has experience with this type of brewing. This is very new to all the members here.

Cheers again,

JS

 

[PistolPatch]

Stephen thanks for yet more of your top info. I'll definitely have a bash at the 'escalator mash' at some stage just out of interest.

Excellent pics and posts Wobbly - maybe you can give me posting lessons? How clear is that wort! I've got that pump too by the way but use it for chilling. Works really well. Also, you should get some trub loss improvement from the sock for sure.

Zizzle and a neighbour dropped over to taste the bag brew last night resulting in me doing some ridiculous posting to this thread, now deleted - lol! He's going to have a bash at some smaller brews using a 20lt el cheapo SS pot I have so it'll be interesting to see how much volume you can score in such a small pot.

He's also kindly wiring up my two Mashmaster fridge controllers so my next attempt at AndrewQLD's lager shoud be spot on fermenting wise. Te current one seems to be travelling along quite nicely though.

One interesting point I haven't mentioned is that when I brewed at Aussie's on Saturday, the mash using bag brewing was 30 minutes faster than the batch sparging. Nice little time saving that.

Cheers
PP

 

[wobbly]

Flemming

Re your post #133 on the Beersmith setup, could you give me a few more details on the "Nimbus" system.

1. Is your system basically a 29lt Stainless Steel Boiler

2. If so how do you manage to do a 30lt boil without getting a "boil over" and end up with 25lt final volume without any "top up water"?

3. What is the Kilowatts of the heating element?

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[mimerbryg]

@woobly
Here are my answers:

1:
I dont know the english word, but in germany its kown as a 'Rommelsbacher' or 'Einkochsautomat'
They sell lthem in many shops in germany. Here are som links:
Link 1
Ebay

So the short answer to you question is 'yes'

2:
Our procedure is slighty different from the procedure used above.
Normaly we start with 23 liter, and top op with 5-7 liters of water, to get 25 liters. Evaporation is ca. 10% pr. our. We meassure the SG before adding water to hit the desired gravity. But even though I had the basic eqipment (incl. extra kettle for hot water) I like the idea in this thread. 19 Liters would be okay to fill a Cornelius Keg and then quit the bottling. And then we dont have to heat up the sparge water.
You can see our schedule at the beginning of this thread

3:
2000 W


If interessted I can take som more pictures of the parts of my system. Basicly it is very simple, but effective and I like it a lot :wub:

 

[wobbly]

Thanks for that Flemming

Based on your lower evaporation rate and 2000 watt element it would appear that you do not target an "aggressive" (strong) rolling boil to provide a high evaporation of around 14% per hour that appears to be the normal in Australia

Maybe high evaporation rate boils are not necessary maybe others would like to comment

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[mimerbryg]

We havent had any problems with DMS and to get a full boil, we use the campingmatress.

Okay we dont get a wild boil like this guy but I dont think it is necessary.

Further reading:
evaporation and how to calculate it
Something about full boil

Kind reagds
Flemming