All In One Brewery...

[PistolPatch]

Mornin' James,

Thanks for your post and PM. This thread wouldn't have died mate. Only thing I've done is made it a hell of a lot longer to read - lol

So the urn has arrived - great stuff! In your PM you mentioned an immersion element. Does the urn already have an element? If so, I hope you're teting it out now with some water. Maybe you won't even need another element to get a vigorous boil? If so, you could just use the bag method.

However, if you do need a second element, you'll have to pioneer the submerged container and mesh method with Poppa. If you do have to go this way, have you had any more thoughts on suspending the element and raising the container?

With a 40 litre urn, you should be able to use full volume so did all my ranting above change your ideas on using a pump?

Hope so - lol!

Pat

 

[James Squire]

... you mentioned an immersion element. Does the urn already have an element? If so, I hope you're teting it out now with some water. Maybe you won't even need another element to get a vigorous boil? If so, you could just use the bag method.

With a 40 litre urn, you should be able to use full volume so did all my ranting above change your ideas on using a pump?

Hey Pat,

Yep the Urn already has a 2400W element fitted, from what I have read it may not produce a good enough boil (anyone?) but you can bet your ass as soon as I get home it'll be filled up and tested to find out! If not then i'll order the immersion element in...

I am fairly sold on the 'no pump' method! For the first little while i will prob brew without but the fact is that I have a brand new washing machine pump (i believe 80C rated) at home that is doing nothing and didn't cost me anything so it may get a run anyway!

As for the mesh in the bucket lifting requirements. I was thinking along the lines of a small frame above the urn that can be used to tie a rope off to and have the bucket handle attatched to the other end of the rope. Perhaps a hook or something can be secured to the frame and the rope can tie off to that... Still some thinking to do though...

JS

 

[Steve Lacey]

This has certainly been a fascinating thread. To me the issues are:

1) Feasibility. Are efficiency/conversion at such thin mash volumes good enough to make it even doable? That seems to have been resoundingly answered in the affirmative. So, basically, yes, you can make beer this way.

2) Quality. Will there be any differences in wort composition from the thin mash? Has anybody tested pH during the thin mash yet? Any difference to a 3:1 mash? So it will be interesting to see the attenuation results and taste tests of these initial batches. Ultimately, though, I think there are going to have to be some tightly controlled comparative brews made with identical grain bills and yeasts. I also suspect the brewing literature would have some treatment of the effect of grain:water ratio on parameters like pH, enzyme activity levels, and saccharide and dextrin composition.

But I am open minded. It is another example, like batch sparging, where Pat's lesson about cognitive dissonance applies; we home brewers copy the practices of large scale brewers (three vessels) simply because that's how they do it. But the reasons may not because it is technically necessary, but because of practical limitations. At large scales, the extra size of the vessel needed relative to batch size is expensive/impractical, and more importantly, it is so much easier to take the liquid away from the grain than vice versa at those scales. "OK guys, mash is done, bring in the crane!"

 

[PistolPatch]

Trying to keep my mouth shut but without any success. I have an idea for James and a hello for Steve.

Good to hear from you Steve. I love your posts - always full of common sense. You asked about pH and interestingly enough, Saturday was the first time I even checked the pH of my water as I scored some of Ross's pH strips. Unfortunately, I didn't check that of the wort during the mash as I'm not sure at what stage you are meant to do it or what it means. I better do some reading instead of writing! I did find that the pH of my water was 6.6 and so I knocked this down to 5.3. This second brew seems to be moving along a lot quicker than the first even though it's 3 days younger. Will check pH levels of the wort and let you know what comes up. If this bag brewing works, it'd be quite a hit in Tokyo with all those small apartments - lol.

Suspending the Bucket

James, I've been thinking about the problem of suspending the bucket and may have an idea or two. If you do framework, it's going to have to be very strong and is going to take up a lot of space. You also wouldn't want it hanging over your brew towards the end of the boil as infected wort could drip back into the kettle.

How about instead of framework, you have some sort of stand you can put in the kettle? In other words, lift the bucket/container and quickly drop in a stand that is high enough to keep the bottom of the container only just submerged above the wort. (I'm thinking that it's not a good idea to have the bottom of the container above the wort due to oxidisation - HSA). It's going to be hard to judge at what height to make the container sit though. In fact, not liking this idea at all now.

Probably the easiest thing to do if you are in a shed is just mount a pulley above your kettle. This way you'll have the control you want without the complicated framework. If you do go this way, be very careful, once again, about leaving the kettle under the pulley system towards the end of and after the boil. You don't want any drips going in.

Raising the Mash Bag

Had a PM from someone today suggesting making framewrok for lifting out the mash bag. This is unneccessary. I had absolutely NO problems lifting the mash bag out on Saturday. No drips. Nothing. In fact, next time I'll pull the bag out at 66 degrees instead of 80 which will make it even easier for me to give it a twirl. You definitely won't need framework for a bag. I like that :beerbang:

Cheers
Pat

Hope you've been having fun playing with the new kettle.

 

[poppa joe]

PP..I am only doing 16lt preboil as starter...
Only a few kilos of grain..
Have taken note of proceedings....May even put the grain bag-sock in the bucket in the urn...That way i have a choice if i cant lift the bucket.... Bucket sits on SS perforated cake tray to cover the element....Vinnies..$1.00
Look in Grundfos pump thread...Kai or Braulover posted a photo....Mark i think can enlighten you more..
I bought 2 for $10.00 brass body plastic impeller...3 adjustable speeds....I have been told they are used for transfering hot liquids.
But apparently wont pump to great heights...
Cheers
PJ



PS. The Urn cost me $5.00

 

[poppa joe]

JS>>>
I think you will need an immersion heater as well....as the urn.....
I can boil 16lt ..but needs that little bit extra....
I have a small heater...not like pumpys...strung across urn with a brass rod.(configured so it dont go into urn)
But i have only done one Ag with mine...(waiting for grain)
PP.. THe heater was zilch also...Brand new..Friend was cleaning his garage...threw it out..on his trailer..
I rescued the little sucker (i like to give useless things a good home)(I am waiting for him to throw his other one out...It is a BBBig Electric Water Heater..similiar to an urn .. ) I drool everytime i go to his place..

PJ

 

[PistolPatch]

Looks like I have a lot to learn about mash pH. My goodness! After Steve's post, I have just done some considerable reading without gaining much wisdom - have just reached the totally bewildered stage -lol.

When I was told to aim for a figure of around 5.2 - 5.5, I thought that meant the ph of water you add to the mash. I now realise it is the ph you want to acheive once the grain is mixed with the water and some grains will have more effect than others. Still haven't learned enough to know whether my adjustment on Saturday was a major stuff up or not. Wort still tastes good though!

Another thought was that because I used such a high volume of water to mash in, hopefully the pH didn't vary too much from 5.3. I'm hoping like hell that this is another advantage of large volume mashing but could well be fooling myself on this as I really don't have a clue.

Poppa, you are definitely that pink paper clip bloke - lol! Saw those pumps. And the urn, also five bucks. Heater free! Unbelievable!

The cake tray is a great idea too. I reckon I'll do this with the bag as well. I was told it's not a worry but I'm still a little uncomfortable with the grain being exposed to the direct heat.

Cheers
PP

 

[James Squire]

Hi all,

Pat, yeah i've been thinking a lot about it too... pulley system is where my thoughts were heading also. Seems like the go. Sorry for the crossed wires too but im not planning on having the bucket above the kettle during the boil... perhaps just let it drain as much as it does whilst raising the temp then move away. Perhaps a stir or a slight press with potato masher or something to finish up.

PJ, grouse idea with the cake tray. Very cool!

Also for Pat and PJ, I unfortunately haven't had the chance to fire up the Urn to test its boiling abilities as yet. Was planning to last night but got a late call up to play a night baseball game against the VIS (Vic Institute Sport). Hopefully tonight I'll give it a go...

Cheers,

JS

 

[wobbly]

James

Why would you want to stir it up or mash it with a potato masher?

If you were doing a "normal" mash in an "eski" you would just let it drain.

My 2c worth would be that after raising the "bucket" and having it "suspended" (by what ever means) above the boiler (urn) to them "sparge" by adding the required litres of 75 - 80 C water to make up to your boil vol as per "Mimerbryg's" comment back on the 14th July. His system talked about 6lt of sparge water.

One possibility to do this would be to simlpy use a 2lt kitchen kettle and heat the water up to 75 - 80c three times (assuming you have a thermometer that can be insereted into the kettle) and add this to the top of the mash and let it drain through into the boiler. You might want to place "something" on the top of the mash to help prevent the grain bed from being disturbed while adding the "sparge" water.

I'm working along the same lines as you (bucket in and Urn) and I intend using a cheap ($12) waterfeature pump located in the bottom of the urn to recirculate the wort to the top of the bucket, I have run the pump under test in 75C water for 3 hours and it doesn't seem to have caused any adverse effects (well it still works). By placing the pump in the urn along with the delivery line to the top of the bucket I get minimal heat loss in the wort being circulated.

Cheers

wobbly

 

[James Squire]

Wobbly,

Point taken on the stirring... My thoughts really moved from there anyway since this morning. Im very keen now to rig up a pulley (possibly on an arm) above the brewing area so as to have total control over height of the bucket in the urn (raised off element), and above (to prevent splashing). Having the pulley on an arm allows me to swing the bucket away from above the boil.

Recirculating is something that I have thought a bit about. As mentioned previously, I have a (new) washing machine pump that I intend to eventually trial for recirculating. Not recirculating to sparge though (as rinsing wort with wort is non effective) but mainly for even temps during mash and to improve clarity. The idea is possibly on the back burner though now that PP has trialled and reported crystal clear wort...

Sparging with more hot water is all good and well, though the whole idea is to mash in full volumes.

Good to hear of someone going the bucket in Urn method with me!

Cheers,

JS

PS. For those interested, I purchased the 40 Litre Urn *brand new* from Aaron Catering Equipment Nunawading VIC for the low low price of $225. It is a "Jomack" brand. Website located here, http://www.aaroncaterequip.com.au/PieFood%...#hot%20water%20 urn price listed as higher but you can talk them down... trust me!

 

[PistolPatch]

Can't believe you haven't fired up the urn yet James. Baseball compared to brewing? Am very worried about your commitment now - lol!

Wobbly, thought I'd throw the following in for you and any other poor bugger just joining this thread. With 110 posts to this thread, mostly very long ones (not sure by who???), I thought a summary and update would be appropriate as there is no no way I would read 110 posts of any thread! It will also explain why James mentioned stirring and 'mashing'. It might take me a while to get there though at least reading my stuff is a lot quicker than writing it

A Thread Summary and Update

The thread started with an idea James had and gradually developed into some other ideas. Some experiments have been done and some are in trial. We haven't as yet tasted any results.

(James also hasn't as yet realised the amount of people I have probably driven away from his thread through my long, detailed and sometimes even inebriated posts here. This is great for me but not so good for him. This means I can just write away!)

If I had to think of a new title for what James' thread has developed into, I'd probably call it...

Full Volume All Grain Brewing. Is it Possible? What Equipment is Needed?
Subtitle: Is There an Easier Way for Us Amateurs to All-Grain Brew?

This means, 'Can you mash 5kg of grain in 30-35 litres of water?' and, 'What's the bare minimum of equipment needed to do so?' Straight away, this really needs 2 threads but so far it has been driven by us poor amateurs tossing around some ideas, getting off-topic and generally entertaining ourselves. Mainly thanks to the the direct and indirect assistance/encouragement from experienced AHB brewers, things have developed.

Is it Possible?

Well, as far as I can see, without tasting the beer - yes. AndrewQld started the experiments off in this field by mashing, in his esky, about 5kg of grain in 33 litres of water. He could see no ill-effects and found it a bit of fun. Smashed Jaffa also did a small batch in the same way. I followed this by a few brews using a mash bag in a kettle (no esky), one of which I, purposely <_< , brewed quite badly. The second one, I mucked around with pH levels but the experienced guys have told me today that it is not a worry - phew! At least one of my brews shoud be ready for a taste test on Saturday. The following week, I'll take the 2 brews to Brisbane for some experienced guys to taste.

What Equipment Is Needed?

If we are talking full volume mashing, a pump serves no purpose. The grains will be fully rinsed. All we are talking about here is a massive batch sparge - in a way, the more you stir the better as we are aiming to rinse the sugars thoroughly from the grain at the correct temperature and then remove this grain without leaving a heap of crap behind.

Here's where we get to equipment. What does the equipment have to do? All it has to do is strain the grain. Simple as that. We don't want grain husks etc., going into the wort. If we are going full volume, we don't have to worry about rinsing/sparging - it's already been done!

We are now up to the stage of considering two equipment methods. One involves basically a filter inside a bucket inside a kettle. The other is just a filter inside a kettle (mashing in a bag).

This is why James mentioned stirring or a slight press. He's just working on ways of how he's proposing to get that last bit of liquor from what the filter container he pulls out of the kettle. The filter will hopefully be fine enough for clarity to not be an issue.

Wobbly, your idea of sparging is certainly sound. James idea of using a pump to re-circulate for clarity is also sound but the thread seems to be now a little fixated on this full volume method due to the great initial results of the experiments as well as the lack of equipment and experience required.

Told you I'd get there eventually Wobbly!

LOL!
Pat

EDIT: Just had a bash at shortening the above without much success. Hopefully it will help some people get up to date rather than be me just taking up more space - again!

 

[poppa joe]

I keep staring at my newly done setup...Looking all lonely there...WITH NO BLOODY GRAINS
TO PUT IN THEM..Not in yet...
Wobbly...i have one of those pumps...(Was sitting next to the immersion heater on the trailor)
Unpacked the box the pump still in its plastic wrap...left the funny looking thing that that the water runs down..
PP>>> the cake tray is a solid ss heavy one ..with holes similar to a coleander.....with legs...
PJ


PS....PP...got a paper clip to swap or trade...interested///????????

 

[poppa joe]

JS...
Just reading back ...your idea on an arm....
I have a swivel type mounting ..add an L arm mounted on an old straight type ford jack..
"VOILA'....Now where did i put that Jack...????
PJ

 

[James Squire]

Good Summary Pat,

Oh and your inebriated posts are the some of the best posts on this forum!

JS

 

[PistolPatch]

Won't write my usual essay...

Bag brewing is unexpectedly going on tour tomorrow and I have a quick question for the more experienced brewers....

AussieClaret invited me for a brew day tomorrow and so I thought, that I might as well pack my gear and do a brew alongside him. AndrewQLD kindly supplied me with a recipe and excellent notes within 15 minutes of my urgent request - a German Pils, so I was able to get Aussie to grab some grain today.

To make this, 'full volume,' brewing even easier for beginners, what do you think about adding the grain early?

So, add the grain first and then raise it to the strike temperature?

I was just thinking it would take one last calculation away for the beginners. I'm happy to give it a go tomorrow but is this a completely stupid idea? I'm after a beer that's at least 90% right. Fine tuning can come later. Would really appreciate any thoughts.

Many thanks,
Pat

P.S. The other beers seem to have handled the hammering I have given them so, if I'm going to test the waters on a pils, I might as well start at the deep end. If it turns out badly, it's my fault not the recipe's!

 

[goatherder]

I think it depends how early you add, and how quickly (and easily) you can adjust your temps.

We know that most of the conversion happens in the first 10-15 minutes of the mash. You probably want to hit your mash temp as soon as possible after the grain gets wet. I guess it's going to be a tradeoff between hitting the temp quickly and hitting it accurately.

How about this: Heat your full volume minus 2 litres of mash water to a bit above your strike temp. I'm guessing not too far above (say 68-70 degrees for a 65 mash?) as you have a lot more thermal mass in your water (and your tun is already hot) than a traditional 3 vessel brew. Add your grain, give it a stir, wait a minute and check your temp. Then add 2litres of cold or boiling (or a mix of both) to hit your strike temp.

If you added your grain early and needed to raise a few degrees, it's literally going to take minutes to do it. I think hitting the strike temp as quickly as possible and holding it there will give a greater batch-to-batch consistency for a new brewer.

Part of learning AG is getting to know your equipment. It will only take a brew or two for a someone to figure out the correct mash water temp to start with.

 

[PistolPatch]

Goat, you are going to love this one as I know you like playing around with some new ideas...

Firstly, your answer above is perfect and should make it pretty easy for anyone to hit strike quickly.

But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?

So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.

I can't see any probs with this idea but then again I don't know nuffink - lol.

Many thanks Goat,
Pat

 

[goatherder]

But, and I should have worded it better in my post above, what about just throwing the grain in at 30 degrees and then raising it to 67?

So, what I'm talking about is a step mash with no rests until you reach the strike tempertature.

I see what you mean now, sort of a continuous step mash?

Whilst it would be interesting to see how it turns out, I think it introduces a potential for variation that we don't need right now. My reasoning is:

1: The continuous step mash profile is going to vary depending on your equipment. Burner size, kettle size and dimensions, ambient temp are all going to effect how long it takes you to get to strike. This mash profile will affect the end results. Whilst a single brewer should get reasonable brew-to-brew repeatability, the reproducibility of the results between brewers with different gear is going to vary, perhaps widely.

2: If brewers hit their strike temp quickly, and learn how to adjust it if they don't, we get both batch-to-batch repeatability and brewer-to-brewer reproducibility as everyone is using the same effective mash profile.

The repeatibility aspect is important for brewers to be able to fine-tune their processes and recipes. The reproducibility is important so that brewers can share their experiences and learn from each other, helping them improve faster as a group.

Maybe this is a bit theory heavy, what do you reckon?

 

[PistolPatch]

Oh and your inebriated posts are the some of the best posts on this forum!

LOL James! I really must do something about those. Don't mind being laughed at - just hope I don't drive the older forum members completely insane. Think I'll write .pdf files from now and post them instead!

Bag Brewing Taste Results In - Thumbs Up!

This was the brew that I brewed with little skill and many errors. Forced carbonated the keg yeserday using some unfamiliar equipment before heading to AussieClaret's to do a brew. The beer was too cold and very under-carbonated. I wasn't too impressed. It was highly drinkable but not as rich as the Schwartz should be. (Also tasted it amongst other quite bitter beers so maybe this had an effect as well.)

Today however, I had to race up to Ross's to get a fridge controller to repair my fridge so gave the keg another carbonation and took the beer to Ross's. I was bloody surprised! This was yummy! Both of us found it a very enjoyable beer. Also, it is still only 10 days since the yeast was pitched so we should expect some further development.

After that taste today, I would describe it as certainly a very good beer - very pleased.

Goatherder Thanks for taking the trouble to reply above. Really appreciated. Your points were spot on and in no way too heavy in theory. You always write well. Found out today that there shouldn't be any trouble with doing the, 'continuous step mash,' but might leave that little experiement until later. God knows why I even thought of yet another experiment esp. when doing my first lager. What an idiot!

Gotta go but one last thing. It was great to yesterday be able to load up my brewing gear, head to AussieClaret's and do a brew together side by side. Can't think of a nicer way to brew. Go the bag!!!

PP

 

[stephen]

PP

One of the things to look at while doing your continual step mash is that you are going to go throught a couple of rests: The temps where certain things will happen that you may or may not like to happen.

First is the "Phytase rest" at the 30 deg mark. This is where phytic acid is produced to help adjust the PH of the mash. Pilsener Urquel, in the original days, would use this step to lower the Ph for the mash. Whether you want this in your brew and/or if it would enhance your brew is yet to known.

The next rest is the "Protein rest" at about 50 deg C. Again wether you want/need this rest during your mash will be determined by the style.

Not trying to scare you in your experimental endeavours (and trust me we are learning lots from your endeavours) but to let you know of other forces that could be at work whilst you are brewing. These may enhance your brew or produce something you weren't expecting.

Regards and all the best in your endeavours,

Stephen.

PS The beauty of this forum is that if I have made a mistake then others will correct me.