All In One Brewery...

[AndrewQLD]

Sorry I missed that PP , I stirred at the 30 min and 60 minute mark. I didn't stir at the 90 min end just recirculated for 10 minutes.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks Andrew. Your experiment has me impatient to try a brew using no esky or pump, just the kettle and, 'mash sock.' Ross reckons I can get away with curtain material so will order some grain and should be able to do a brew on Wednesday. Thanks to you I'll probably hit the strike temp first up!

A lot of possible disadvantages to mashing thin have already been refuted thanks to Andrew so I thought it might be interesting to write down a few of the advantages. These might quickly tempt FNQ into having a bash at AG - lol. I'm sort of focussed off the original method which involved a pump so I hope James doesn't mind me continuing my possible hijack by just writing down the advantages of the sock method.

The advantages I've written down are not necessarily in order of importance. If anyone has any others they can see it would be great to hear them. Many of the below will not seem very important to experienced brewers but when they cast their mind back they'll certainly remember that a few things that seem so simple now such as building a mash tun, can be quite daunting when you're starting out.

Some Advantages of the Kettle and Mash Sock Method

1. Little Equipment Required: Only extras needed for those doing K&K are a kettle, a mash sock, thermometer and heat source. (Have not included chiller due to other methods of cooling being available.)
2. Excellent Temperature Control: Temperature of the mash is easily controlled by turning on and off heat source - something difficult to do with an esky. This means maintaining mash temp., multi-rest mashing and raising temp. for mash out are all easy to acheive. Temperature is also more stable due to larger volume.
3. Simple Quick Cleaning: Empty mash sock. Rinse and wash in washing machine. No cleaning of syphon and other vessel to vessel hoses and fittings.
4. Space-saving: Storage space approximately one-third of 3 vessel brewing. Working space whilst brewing is similiarly reduced.
5. Ergonomic: Brewing operations can be at at waist level.
6. Less 'Active' Time Required: Whilst the mash may still go for 90 minutes, during that 90 minutes all that is required is the occassional stir and temperature check/maintenance. No fly sparging or heating up water to correct temp for first and second sparges.
7. Kettle Size is Large Enough: From bigfridge's post above, we can see that a 50 lt kettle will handle a mash of quite big beers.
8. Simple Quick Set-Up: Self-explanatory.
9. One Volume and Temperature Calculation: Big advantage for new AG'ers.
10. Low Knowledge & Concentration Levels Required: The above method can be done without a lot of prior reading etc. The simplicity of the method also means the mash requires far less concentration. In your first few brews, heating different volumes of water to various temperatures that are ready on time can be spectacularly easy to stuff up. This should be simple but I know many are initially caught out on this and it stresses them out.

Better go now and write a PM to James apologising for all my long posts to his thread.

PP

P.S. Wobbly, sorry I can't help with any of your questions but my knowledge is a bit limited when it comes to pumps, re-circulation etc.

 

[vlbaby]

I say good on you PP. Give it a go and let us know if it all works ok. A lot of things in brewing can be technically a no go, such as the "no chill method". I think there are plenty of people here that can confirm great results from this method, myself included.
You may be able to show that mashing thin in a sock (or curtain ) is another great untapped method.
Whats the worst that can happen really? A just Ok quality brew? It will still be better than most mega swills!

Good luck with whatever you try mate, you've got to try what you think. :beerbang:


cheers

vl.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Love your write up PP, there are advantages and disadvantages, I will see how the 2 vessel no sparge method goes when the brew is in the keg and I am drinking it before I form any conclusions. But to be honest, I read this thread, thought that sounds interesting and had a go at one of the problems involved, it was a bit of fun on brewday and I look forward to the results.

good on you all for having a go and thinking beyond the norm.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[razz]

Evening Andrew, out of interest what was your final volume into the fermenter ?

 

[AndrewQLD]

23 lt into the fermenter Razz, boil off was as expected and no boil overs were experienced even with the 6lt evap/hr + I get.
The main interest for me was the effect on efficiency, mashing in with all the water, and if this has effected the end product in the way of mouth feel, dryness ect. I have no plans to change my brewing setup to a one or even two vessel system because I AM already setup, and don't need to change. But this experiment might help non all grainers who are looking to go further, and give them another way to experiment and see if they want to expand into the AG method.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[PostModern]

Interesting thread. I've been watching this thread for a while and have an idea, please flame it down if it's absurd, I don't have any particular attachment to it...

Why not mash at a "normal" rate, say 3:1 or 3.5:1 and just add more water at the end of the mash? That said, I'd like to hear the flavour results of Andrew's brew.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Interesting thread. I've been watching this thread for a while and have an idea, please flame it down if it's absurd, I don't have any particular attachment to it...

Why not mash at a "normal" rate, say 3:1 or 3.5:1 and just add more water at the end of the mash? That said, I'd like to hear the flavour results of Andrew's brew.

Well, that's what I thought too PoMO, after all that's what a no-sparge method is, but these guys are trying to work a system using only one vessel. So I thought, lets first see if you can brew a reasonable beer by mashing in with all the liquor first, with predictable results, and then they can design a single brew vessel if it seems feasable. Love the inventiveness of brewers.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[PistolPatch]

Cheers Vl & Andrew. I've been wondering where the hell James Squire is?

What a great weekend! Found out that one of the closest relations you can get is in remission from a seriously bad disease (probably very bad taste posting the news here sorry but I've been celebrating) and AndrewQLD has proved that mashing thin is OK - doesn't get much better than this!

PostModern: Long time, no see - lol! Your question is very valid. You are asking, 'Why Not Do This?' but this thread goes even further and asks, 'Why Even Bother Doing That?

The answer to your question is that it will cost you severely in grain bill to mash in low volume and then dump the sparge water direct into the ketle.

AndrewQLD today showed that mashing thin is OK by dropping 36 litres of water into his 5-6kg of grain contained in the mash tun. It made no difference in efficiency.

From his experiment I can only see one problem and this problem only relates to those who have already invested in an esky as you cannot raise temp to mash out unless you have an immersion element. If you are mashing in your boil vessel all other problems seem very easily solved.

Cheers,
Pat

Hope I'm still making sense Post,

All the best,
PP

 

[AndrewQLD]

pass on my congrats PP, a remission is a gift from God and a celebration toast is definately in order CHEERS.

Andrew

 

[PistolPatch]

Well Andrew, I can definitely say that he would not have made it without the pioneering spirit that you and James Squire obviously have. PM of appreciation coming your way soon.

Many thanks,
Pat

P.S. This bloke who scored his remission to a disease where there is never a remission would be very cranky with us brewers if we get off topic. He's a great bloke and I'm pretty dumbstruck by his effort. He's been a great pioneer in his field so I suppose we should get back to the serious work of exploring Single Vessel Brewing!!!!

Off now to review some beers from the QLD Swap - one very scary one!

Cheers to Andrew!
PP

 

[James Squire]

Geez, offline for one day and look at all the action I've missed!

Andrew, mate you are a legend for having a crack at answering the underlying question for us all! The simple fact that someone who is already fully set up is willing to tone down their brewing processes to give others some options with their own brewing is a credit to the community here at AHB.

Looks like all went well as hoped, my fingers are crossed for the quality of the resulting beer! Good luck to you!

I think, though the tasting results are not in yet that the idea holds enough merit to give it a go myself. The setup phase begins this week and with a bit of luck will be getting a run within the fortnight. As it is at the moment, I am only a partial mash brewer and don't currently have the capacity to boil large amounts so I've headed out and tracked down a nice 40L urn to commission as my new HLT/MLT/Kettle! I've also kept a close eye on the 'fixed or immersion element' thread on here and look like picking up an immersion element to work along with the urn and increase my boiling ability. Once I have these and I knock together my mesh bottomed bucket then I reckon Im good to go on my maiden All Grain run!

Gotta fly now, but thanks everyone for all the interest and efforts.

Cheers,

JS

PS. Pat, sent you a PM, quit your stressing mate! Im still here and really happy to have your input. Cheers.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Dr George Fix's post you quoted above, I fully understood. The only question I have on this is why did the good doctor add the 20lt to the kettle instead of putting it into the mash?

Hi Pat,
The question goes to the core of a lot of sparge v no-sparge debates that have endured to this day. Let me put it this way - you need to consider the maltiness of a beer and the gravity of the beer as two separate concepts. Once you've done that, the method becomes that and not madness!
I could go on about this topic, but this probably isn't the place, but let me quote a post from respected US brewer Louis Bonham, who provided some insight into this topic, back in Homebrew Digest #2284, in 1996...

Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:52:19 -0600
From: Louis Bonham
Subject: No sparge brewing / AOB

John Wilkinson has some Q's about no sparge brewing:

> 1) How much water should be in the mash tun before starting the runoff? I use a 10 gal. Igloo cylindrical for a mash/lauter tun and generally mash with about 16-17# of grain and water to about the 6 gal. mark. When I mash out the level will be between ~8 to 10 gallons. Obviously, the amount of water in the tun would affect the amount of runoff collected and the maltiness if the no sparge technique means anything. What would be recommended?

I think you're missing the point. Gravity does not equal maltiness. No sparge brewing yields a maltier *tasting* beer. To answer your question, just use the same amount of foundation water as you usually do.

> 2) Without sparging I would assume that the runoff would be higher gravity. Given that, would the runoff be diluted with water to the desired gravity? If that is the case, why would diluting with sparged runoff dilute the maltiness more than diluting with plain water? Would a better solution be to use less grain and not dilute the runoff with water? In this case it would appear to me that doing this to achieve lower OG would mean using a higher water to grain ration. Why is this different from sparging?

Again, you're confusing gravity with maltiness. They're not the same. By using a no sparge technique, you get a higher quality wort -- not just a higher gravity runoff. Stated another way, let's assume you and I each generate 5 gallons of 14P wort, but you sparge and I don't. Obviously, I have to use more grain and dilute the runoff to have the same pre-boil gravity as you do. If we used the same materials, fermented them with the same yeast and under similar conditions, etc., we'll come out with beers that are about the same FG. Do they taste the same? My experience (and I've done probably 15 twelve gallon batches with this technique) mirrors Jeff's and Dr. Fix's -- the no sparge beer tastes maltier.

Jeff is absolutely right when he encourages everyone to try this technique -- it makes for a shorter, easier brew cycle, and it produces noticeably better beer. Downside is increased cost, but with grain at $0.75/lb, you're talking about less than $3 more for an average sized batch. Not much to pay.
[snip]
Louis K. Bonham lkbonham at i-link.net

There is a common "defence" of sparge brewing in that it's quite possible to obtain delightfully malty beers with a sparge brewing method - and I agree with that point. We make them all the time - but that isn't the key point that George was trying to make. He simply demonstrated how to make a good flavoursome beer with a larger mash volume, no sparge and extra malt to make up for the extraction efficiency losses. Rather than extracting tannins from the grainbed, he added water to the kettle to achieve a pre-boil volume without ringing the bejesus out of the grains and adding harsh tannins to the kettle and the final product. Result? An excellent malty beer that didn't need a sparge.
I'd venture to suggest that the gravity was a secondary consideration...You can get buy without having to go through the sparge process which in turn is worth something to the time poor, equipment challenged brewer as well!

Hope this helps...but the debate goes on!
Cheers,
TL

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks Trough not only for the reply but for the fact it's even longer than my standard post - lol.

That's a perfect explanation you've given and has certainly cleared up any final questions I had on this. A lot better answer than the one I tried to give PoMo last night whilst slightly disabled!

Thanks again Trough,
Pat

P.S. Ordered grain today for the next experiment here. Hopefully it will arrive Wed morning but will have to brew in the arvo/evening, Grrrr. My 76 year old neighbour is sewing up a mash bag to completely line my kettle. (Haven't discussed how she wants to be paid. OMG! I hope she's thinking cash. )

 

[poppa joe]

I have a 16lt..pre boil electric urn ..which i insulated today..Grain sock..thanks to SHMBO..Stainless
chip basket instead of plastic coleander..(PP)
Gonna have a go at Mini type thingy...
PJ

 

[James Squire]

Im loving this!

Every couple of days there's another person wanting to give it a crack! Now im itching to get a go at it myself!

Good luck PJ, hope it all goes well. Make sure to post results and/or any questions! All the best.

Cheers to getting more AG'ers going and cheers to always learning new ways,

JS

 

[PistolPatch]

EDIT: Note this post originally only shoed refractometer readings in Brix - have converted readings this morning and put them in parentheses.

Ross's Schwarzbier Using Kettle and Mash Sock

Grain arrived - thanks MHB. (MHB has followed this thread and cracked the grain a little coarser than normal would to suit this experiment). Had to work longer than expected today so couldn't begin until 5pm - grrrr. Would have written a more detailed and entertaining story here for the newer Ag'er's but 3 neighbours invited themselves over before I could even start. If this experiment works and the beer tastes good, will tidy up the following notes and put them as a new topic for those wanting to have a crack. Have been taking pics but they will be poor quality and I'll have to post them later when I get rid of the neighbours.

So far, very easy method and here's a copy of my notes...

5:00PM: Setup kettle, gas and burner.
5:05PM: Start filling kettle and apply full heat with 3 ring burner. Filled kettle to 33 litres. Attached mash sock.
5:45PM: 72 degrees reached. Poured grain in and struck at 68 (2 above the desired of 66). Lid off.
5:52PM: Stir. Dropped to 66. Lid on.
6:02PM: Stirred & strill at 66? Lid on.
6:18PM: Stirred. 65 so heated on outer ring whilst continuing to stir.
6:25PM: 66 reached. Lid on.
6:43PM: Stirred. 63.5 so heatyed with inner ring.
6:54PM: 66. Refractometer reading of 1012.6 [1052]
7:02PM: Stir and refrac reading of 1013. [1053]
7:15PM: Final stir and refrac reading of 1013. [1053] Temp = 64. Apply full heat whilst stirring.

Let sit for 30 mins to see if any diff in refrac reading and ditch neighbours.
Result: No difference apart from now no neighbours - cool!

7:45PM: Raise temp to mash out of 80, stirring whilst doing so. Give up on stirring after 5 mins and look at ways to raise mash bag to prevent tannin problem. Raise bag over 10 minute period: (Needs a little more thought here to make things easier).
8:03Pm-8:13PM: Reached 80 degrees. Pulling grain bag out. (further notes later)
8:20PM?: Boil begins: 26lt at 1014. [1057] (Have grain bag draining in another vessel so might add this later.)
8:25PM: Add 90 grams of some sort of hops - label has gone astray but pretty sure I got the right bag.

So Far: Despite the above notes (mainly written for my benefit), this is very easy so far. Get rid of neighbours, photos and taking notes for AHB then it's actually a breeze.

Back later...

P.S. I think after my long day, the no-chill method is looking very good - lol! Belucky if you get any pics tonight also!

 

[PistolPatch]

9:00PM: Added 1.25 litres to the boil that I had draining into a spare pot. This was done with a a fairlyquick squeeze after holding the mash bag up for about 30 secs. Refrac reading of these, 'runnings, was, interestingly enough 1013*. More interesting to me is that it was still very clear.

1013 Brix = 1053

 

[smashed jaffa]

Great stuff PP.

I have loved watching this thread evolve and the ideas coming left right and centre. :super:

For someone who is new to AG (4 batches under my belt myself), I have been trying to work out how to get a maltier beer.

I first read about this method in How to brew (JP) and have been intrigued by it, but have gone down the sparge path coz... thats' the done thing I guess! :blink:

I have a 10 gallon Gatorade Mash Tun with a false bottom. I have calculated I have 2 litres deadspace under the tap in MT and counting for 1:1 water/grain absorbtion.

My question is if I do a no sparge method, would I then just simply add enough water at mash in, above and beyond the deadspace and grain absorbtion, to the boil volume I require or, do mash out with an addition of water etc....?

Sorry if this has been said already and I hope I am not hijacking thread. :huh:

I am planning on doing a Vienna Lager this weekend and really want to get a good malt flavour coming through.

Anyone...?

Cheers,

SJ

 

[PistolPatch]

Smashed Jaffa: Glad to see someone's there! I've just made a major f-up on hops - Pat takes yet another one for the team! Will do my last incorrect addition shortly, put the lid on this ******* (actually has been very good if you use the correct hops) and then I'll answer your question. Spewing - everything else was perfect!