Aabc And Subordinate State Competition Rules

[the_new_darren]

Another factor that could possibly be coming into play here, and I think it was touched on by DrK is the "house mouth phenomenon".

My experience is that if a group of guys (sometimes judges) get together socially and share beers, certain qualities/defects from each brewer can become quite evident and a "preferred flavour" can become dominant.

It would therefore reasonable to expect then that if that same group of brewers just happen to be judging, then they would (not intentionally) automatically drift toward the "preferred flavour" as a better beer.

I hope Ross has the courage (and endorsement of others from his state) to enter his winning FWK beers into the nationals (No I wont be judging or attending) for further assessment.

cheers

the_new_darren

 

[Fourstar]

See link below for stats, this is where i stand.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=817713

Ok im just putting this out there for people to view at their own leisure.

Some things i have noticed from the stats:

Look at the average score
Look at the scores of some of beers that placed
Look at the strike rate for a place

Does this appear out of the ordinary for an amateur brewer who is a seasoned competition entrant, that brews great beer that has seriously 'bombed' all categories?

Personally, i dont think it does. FWK, cubed beer, i couldnt care less as long as they are fermented 'small batch' im amateur conditions.

Final thought. If Queensland thinks they will take out the AABC based on some of those lower end scores that placed or were close to placing, you better think again! :icon_cheers:

 

[the_new_darren]

Is that 3x 1st, 1x 2nd and 3x third?

 

[Fourstar]

Is that 3x 1st, 1x 2nd and 3x third?

correct, points are inverse to the place.

 

[Zizzle]

For all those advocating professional brewers or any beer be allowed in - there are other competitions for that - we are talking about an amateur brewing competition.

You know, for folks who want their beers to be compared to the beers of their amateur peers. People who have similar resources, and not years of professional training / brewing time / expensive equipment and exclusive access to certain ingredients.

Sure some may want to go head-to-head with the commercial guys - do it - just don't corrupt an amateur competition.

As far as those who point out that it is impossible to police - that will always be the case. You always have to rely on the honesty of the participants. If someone is going to cheat by using a FWK against the rules, then why not cheat and pour a commercial beer into a bottle and submit that? You may counter with the fact that not all commercial beers would win, but some would. Some even define the style.


And now for a joke:

For all those kit brewers looking to get feedback via the state comps, let me save you the time/effort/money.

"Some twang in beer. Move to AG to make better beer". :lol:

 

[jbirbeck]

See link below for stats, this is where i stand.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=817713

Everyone has bad scores. could be a bad bottle, could be an infection not identified by the brewer. I see Ross had his fair share, and a few beers that just weren't quite right. I had seven placings too...had a lot of other entries that had bottling issues (typically the comp bottle <_< ) and some beers that were just beaten by others that were better. As a judge I can say for sure recipes and 'brewing' isn't the problem most of the time. fermentation is.

Free for all I say. Enter you kits, if you can ferment better than I can then fantastic, I'll get you to show me some things. If you go to the local micro and get them to do up some wort for you to take home and stick in your fermenter...good luck to you. My experience is you'll stuff something up in the fermentation process or the bottling and I'll win anyway

Professional brewers? Come on down...

:drinks:

 

[spaced]

Tasted some pretty crap,bland and infected commercial beers from small breweries. If they entered their beer straight from the bottling line, under their own brewery name, it'd be interesting to see how they score against Average Joe - just a thought.

Well at the mini-comp for Stouts they slipped in a commercial Stout from Sydney, it rated the worst over all.

 

[Fourstar]

You know, for folks who want their beers to be compared to the beers of their amateur peers. People who have similar resources, and not years of professional training / brewing time / expensive equipment and exclusive access to certain ingredients.

Does Ross have professional training and exclusive access? I'd be hard pressed to know what he actually doesnt stock besides brewbrite! :icon_cheers:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I believe that brewing is another word for mashing. If competitions are about judging finished product then admitting to how you made it shouldn't be too big an issue. I don't see any issue with judging like against like though, if that is the rule of the competition.

I once bought a FWK and dry-hopped it. Kits 'n' bits?

I do the occasional brewing demo at G&G. It is clearly a (dis-?) service to the homebrewing community, but also (primarily?) a marketing exercise. John gives me some shop credit as a gratuity. Apart from a small amount of bank interest, it is my only personal income. Does that make me a professional brewer? Does it mean the brews I make at the demo days are ineligible for entry into amateur comps? I use my own equipment to make that beer, so does that mean any beers I make at home on that equipment are also ineligible?

 

[Kodos]

I've only just had a quick read over this thread, so I'm still yet to entirely settle on an opinion.

However, my gut feeling at this point is to keep everything open.

Frankly I think as homebrewers there is no reason we shouldn't be able to brew beer as well as anyone, anywhere, with anything.

I'm not aiming to brew the best stout/ipa/lager/whatever for someone with limited gear etc. I'm aiming to brew the best stout/ipa/lager/whatever. period.

I'm pretty sure if you look at the gear used by the previous national champions, it's pretty simple, and they don't want to change it even if they do have access to all the bling out there.

I don't care if my beer is judged alongside sierra nevada, or coopers, or little creatures etc, if it doesn't stand up, I need to work on it more.

We should hold up the Nationals (and the state comps as qualifiers for the nationals) as the pinnacle of brewing in Australia, and the awards shouldn't be restricted to particular methods.

If you can brew a better beer with FWK, then so be it. If you can brew a better beer with a kit and kilo, all power to you. If you can't beat a FWK or an extract beer, as they say in the classics "join em". That is, of course, if you are just brewing to win competitions.

Every system All-grain (and the myriad ways you go about it) extract, FWH or kit, has its limitations, and it's up to the brewer to identify those limitations and account for them.

For my $0.02 brewing is as much about the evaluating the finished product and modifying either recipe or process to improve it. If you're relying on FWK, then you're limited in you ability to make any changes.

That's my thoughts at the moment anyway. I'll follow discussions with interest (and encourage similar with my state reps!).

 

[Barley Belly]

It's black and white.

When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.

It's an amateur competition.

End of story.

 

[schooey]

Looks black and red to me...

and next time I want to make something to read like gospel, I must remember that big-ass font trick...

 

[Fourstar]

It's black and white.
When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.
It's an amateur competition.
End of story.

Here is another spin on it.

"Judy" owns a cake decorating and bread making store. She sells flour kits and sour dough starters SHE cultured and cake decorating kits with pre-made icing decorations/cake toppers she made by hand.

As she owns a store that sells the above:

Should Judy be allowed to enter an amateur artisan bread making competition?
Should be she allowed to enter an amateur cake decorating competition?

Judy is a hobbyist who owns a store that sells product for people to consume, some of which she makes herself. because she makes some of her product by hand, although with no formal qualifications, does that immediately put her into the same category as Adriano Zumbo or the blokes at your local artisan bakery?

I'd hope not.

 

[Budron]

A professional is someone who gets paid for what they do.

If what they do is make cakes or brew beer or whatever, they are no longer an amateur.

If there are amateur competitions, I guess they are only meant for amateurs.

You can't have you cake and eat it too.

 

[bconnery]

It's black and white.

When you choose to do a hobby or sport or occupation commercially and or professionally you are no longer an amateur.

It's an amateur competition.

End of story.

I suggest you read the rules.
It's there in black and white (and no red at all)

D3. Amateur Brews. The name of the competition is the Australian AMATEUR BREWING
Championship. This indicates the competition is for amateur brews and not for commercial
beers. For many years there was no rule on this issue. The competition name was commonly
interpreted to mean that it was restricted to amateur brewers (rather than amateur brews)
and not open to professional brewers. An issue arose occasionally when a homebrewer turned
professional. Depending on the state, they were sometimes told they could not enter,
sometimes they chose not to enter, and sometimes they were allowed to enter their
homebrewed beers. This rule seeks to clarify the issue by referring to the beer itself. It
recognises that when a professional brewer goes home from work and brews non-commercial
beer as an amateur, then the beers they produce should be considered to be amateur brews."

So, unless the rule changes, you are wrong. Black and white.

 

[manticle]

You can't have you cake and eat it too.

What's the point of cake if you can't eat it?

 

[Budron]

Usain Bolt running in the special Olympics with no shoes on is still Usain Bolt.

 

[Barley Belly]

Touche'

I wonder though, did the said professional brewer go home from work and brew non-commercial beer as an amateur or was any part of the brewing process conducted on his professional work premises?

professional brewer goes home from work and brews non-commercial
beer as an amateur, then the beers they produce should be considered to be amateur brews."

 

[Budron]

Are we saying the quality of the brew is more a reflection on the gear used, rather than the brewer?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

<snip> does that immediately put her into the same category as Adriano Zumbo or the blokes at your local artisan bakery?

I'd hope not.

Nope - she has hair, Adriano Zumbo doesn't. She's not on telly, Adriano Zumbo is (and of course, you can believe everything on telly!).



Goomba

PS. Following this debate enthusiastically. The way I'm seeing it, "who is an amateur brewer" is the fundamental issue at hand. Therefore who should be allowed to enter, based on that premise.

Though I probably agree with the sentiment that amateurs should be up against commercials for the best beer (especially in the sense of demonstrating that homebrew does not equal trough water bootleg nasties), that's not the premise, therefore the idea shouldn't be entertained, unless we are willing to say AABC can throw the rule book out on Amateur and let's open up the comp. Therefore the "Ross" issue that originally precipitated this debate would cease to be an issue and we re-establish the comp as an open brewing comp for aussie craft brewing.