Aabc And Subordinate State Competition Rules

[argon]

I look at it this way... is something, apart from yeast, required to be added to make your ingredients into beer.

Does it require additional ingredients in order to make it into beer;
- grain - yes - water, hops
- extract - yes - water, hops
- hopped extract - yes, water
- BOP - no, because you can just rock up to the facility and purchase it
- FWK - no, because you can just tip it into a fermentor with some yeast and get beer. That's not brewing, that's fermenting. Even if you can top it up to correct gravity, all FWKs i've seen are 15L or 20L or so. The 15L ones say to add water, but they can make beer without any top up of water.

Obviously there becomes a threshold between hopped extract and FWK. That threshold for me is, as above, when another ingredient is required to turn it into beer.

Commercial vs Amateur
Regardless of vocation of the brewer, inline with the above, is the beer made using commercial facilities;
- yes, then cannot be submitted for amateur competition. EG My recipe, i do all the work and ferment at home, but i made the wort at the XXXX factory... then no.
- no, may be submitted

Therefore if i'm the headbrewer at XXXX and i want to submit a Aussie Lager, based on the recipe i use at the factory, but i use equipment other than the commercial brewery, then i'm fine to do that.

 

[Batz]

There is a reason. It is a brewing competition. Brewing requires a level of skill and ability in order to brew correct to style guidelines. Using a kit, be it in a tin, or a fresh wort is bypassing that brewing skill. If it is a brewing competition, then you should have to actually brew it in order to enter. Kits and FWKs are cheating by skipping half of the process.

That's it in a nut shell, tipping a tin of goo into a fermenter and adding water is not brewing.
I can here the rumblings :unsure: "What if K&K brewers add fresh hops, add a mini mash? temperature control and use liquid yeasts? Because those brewers will become A.G. brewers in no time, believe me.

Fresh Wort Kits, forget it, just proves you can shop.

 

[spaced]

I just want to say, if you enter a comp, you do it by choice. And it's your choice whether or not you agree with the rules set out.

If the rules were to be changed I would say.

Kit and Kilo - Yes. If they're as **** as beerfingers says they are, it shouldn't be an issue.

Fresh Wort Kit - No. These are usually all grain and are done on large equipment (will cover that below).

All grain yourself - Yes, of course.

Full extract - Yes

Commercial brewers on their home equipment - Yes. Just because you brew beer all day, doesn't mean you should be stopped from enjoying doing it at home.

Commercial brewers on their work equipment - No.

There are two main reasons to enter a comp. One, to Win, everyone has a chance and although all brewers have different budgets for equipment, I think the playing field needs to be as fair as possible. Two, to get good feedback on their beer. I think all homebrewers have the right to get good feedback.

The cap on equipment size of say 100L or so seems pretty fair, once you go past this you're really heading into professional territory.

 

[bonj]

I just want to say, if you enter a comp, you do it by choice. And it's your choice whether or not you agree with the rules set out.

It's easy to say that, but if rules and laws were so straight forward and not open for interpretation, then we wouldn't need courts and lawyers to interpret and clarify those rules/laws.

The kit issue is clear. They are currently allowed, but there is a push to disallow them. What is a much more grey area is the definition of commercial. Are you proposing no-one enter the comps at all, because the rule is ambiguous? It is only by challenging those ambiguities that we can clarify what the rules actually are.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So given the below, Jamil, John Palmer, Gordon Strong - those guys cant enter anymore because their homebreweries brewed beverages that contributed to the commercial purpose of them writing and selling books about homebrewing.

Whereas FWKs would be absolutely fine, as long as they were made on equipment that was never used to produce finished beer for commercial sale. So for instance, a HB shop or some other enterprise builds a small brewhouse and brews FWK - but isn't licenced to sell beer, so that equipment never produces a "beverage", only an ingredient - thier FWK would be kosher, but one made at an actual brewery would be against the rules. Some FWKs would be fine, but others wouldn't... Can you say complicated?

I'm happy to put my beers up against anyone who has fermented their beer at home, its so much easier to make bad beer in the fermenter than it is to make bad beer in your mash tun - and the reverse is true too - its pretty easy to just get lucky and have your half arsed, dont really know what you're doing mashing system pop out a couple of really good brews by accident and win an award. But if your fermentation regime is dodgey its pretty unlikely that you'll ever be brewing any beers that rate a mention at comps. Possible but its going to be rare.

Beers produced and fermented on premise at a BOP... I dont think so. Someone else made the beer not you. But if you fermented the beer at home, then I'm happy to have my beers up against yours and shake your hand if you happen to win.

The pro/amatuer thing I wont comment on because I plainly have a position motivated by self interest.

A brief read here of the rules of the biggest beer competition in the world puts it quite briefly;



<SNIP>( b ) Your homebrew cannot have been brewed on equipment used to brew beverages for any commercial purpose, whether for commercial research, production or any other purpose, including equipment at brew-on-premises establishments.

( c ) You must give the names of all brewers who helped in the brewing.

( d ) No employee of the Brewers Association may enter.

( e ) Judges may not judge a category they have entered, and stewards may not steward a category they have entered. <SNIP>

Sure, there's still a grey area there around the FWK vs Can argument; You could argue that the FWK is essentially a beverage whereas a can needs a bit more work to make it a beverage, but there is no mention of Pro vs Amateur. It only revolves around the commercial equipment argument. I kind of like it.... although it does mean if I start my cunning plan of producing 750ml FWTKs (Fresh wort Tallie Kits... just add yeast and an Oztop and ferment in the bottle) from my Braumeister, I'll void my ability to enter any comps...

 

[pimpsqueak]

I'm pretty curious how any of these changes would be policed? If you ditch FWK and Kits'n'bits, surely you have to bring into play a method by which these rules can be policed?
Good luck with that... it almost makes it more work than it's worth (and it certainly seems like a lot of work to run a comp at the moment).

My 2c.

 

[argon]

snip... its pretty easy to just get lucky and have your half arsed, dont really know what you're doing mashing system pop out a couple of really good brews by accident and win an award. ...snip...

damnit! you've got my number

 

[jayse]

Another side issue with banning kits is I gather most states would loose valuable sponsership money, Coopers would no longer be interested and they are one of our main sponsers along with other brewshops whos main products are kits, at the state level Coopers also insist we award a trophy for the best kit beer of show.
We would also loose all the entry fees from the kit brewers entering this would possibly mean doubling the entry fees to cover costs.

Most people will say quite rightly that money should not dictate how we run the competitions but its another factor.
I can't see kits being banned ever anyway and don't think they should be.

If anyone does strongly feel this should happen or anything should change should join their state commitee and do all they can to make it happen, maybe oneday fwk may be banned if enough people agree but banning kits or even have them in a seperate section will most likely never happen.

There is no advantage in using kits and at the end of the day pre made extract is a valid ingredient in beer.

Home made beer is home made beer and i don't think they should be judged seperately based on how they were made, i do understand and respect those that feel differently.

 

[petesbrew]

I just want to say, if you enter a comp, you do it by choice. And it's your choice whether or not you agree with the rules set out.

If the rules were to be changed I would say.

Kit and Kilo - Yes. If they're as **** as beerfingers says they are, it shouldn't be an issue.

Fresh Wort Kit - No. These are usually all grain and are done on large equipment (will cover that below).

All grain yourself - Yes, of course.

Full extract - Yes

Commercial brewers on their home equipment - Yes. Just because you brew beer all day, doesn't mean you should be stopped from enjoying doing it at home.

Commercial brewers on their work equipment - No

There are two main reasons to enter a comp. One, to Win, everyone has a chance and although all brewers have different budgets for equipment, I think the playing field needs to be as fair as possible. Two, to get good feedback on their beer. I think all homebrewers have the right to get good feedback.

The cap on equipment size of say 100L or so seems pretty fair, once you go past this you're really heading into professional territory.

Tasted some pretty crap,bland and infected commercial beers from small breweries. If they entered their beer straight from the bottling line, under their own brewery name, it'd be interesting to see how they score against Average Joe - just a thought.

 

[Stagwa]

So I decide to go to the local amateur athletic carnival and enter the 100m sprint (not likelybut draws a good parallel) and I come to the start line there is Usain Bolt. So I go to the organiser to complain and get told "it's ok as he's not there in a profession capacity, he did all the training for this event at home in his own time without his trainers and will only be using standard amateur equipment ofa t-shirt and running shorts like the rest of us instead of his professional lycra shorts and singlet". So now I feel so much better that this is indeed a true amateur competition!


How ridiculous, have an amateur competition and allow professionals
to enter and then try to justify it by saying things like: it's ok if he uses
his own equipment at home etc. is just crap. The pro has brewed more in a year
than I would in the rest of my life time, has had some mentoring and study etc.
brews all day every day and should be capable of brewing a better beer than me
on my home equipment due to all the experience they have.



If they want toenter a competition why not go to The Australian International Beer Awards orchange the Australian Amateur Brewing Championship to Australian BrewingChampionship.

 

[bonj]

So given the below, Jamil, John Palmer, Gordon Strong - those guys cant enter anymore because their homebreweries brewed beverages that contributed to the commercial purpose of them writing and selling books about homebrewing.

That is a prime example of why an accepted interpretation needs to be determined and recorded. Without that, one is free to make all sorts of absurd interpretations of the rules as they are written. It is a common feature of legislation these days to provide examples to clarify the current interpretation of a law. Check out the Queensland Criminal Code for plenty of such examples.

To me, it seems like a bit of a stretch to classify Thirsty Boy's above examples as equipment used for commercial purposes, but how could we know for sure unless it is clarified. A clarification might say something to the effect that the commercial use must be beverage commerce, ie related to the direct selling of beverages, research of recipes prior to commercially retailing said beverages. Alternatively, it might clarify that producing a beverage for any reason related to any commerce might be ineligible.

Without an accepted and published interpretation, no-one can know for sure.

 

[sama]

I have no animosity to kit brews at all,and if kits can produce better beer then so be it.my opinion is ag brews should be judged in there own class wether there worse beer or not, taking grain and turning it into beer is an art form in its own,a labour of love,that should not be lost amongst other methods of beer production.one day kit brews may become consistently superior or on par with ag brews,winning all,then will ag brewing disappear as a homebrew process? Id hate to see the art lost.just my opinion.love to all that brew,theres a place for all forms in a comp i say.

 

[MHB]

Im going to argue strongly for Inclusiveness.
Brewers at any level should be encouraged to enter competitions if for no other reason than to get good unbiased feedback on their beer. With improving judge training this is now a resource available to all brewers to help us brew better beer.
We read on AHB every day how much better AG is than kit or extract brewing, if this is the case what is there to be afraid of. All Grain brewers should be able to match or better anyone, these days we have access to the worlds finest Malt Hops and Yeast, water chemistry and temperature control are a piece of cake. If kit/extract brewers are beating AG brewers then its up to us to raise our standards.
By extension the same argument can be applied to FWK and BOP beers, they are a business, a business has to make money so there are going to be real constraints on what can be made and sold commercially.
If any commercial operator is so dedicated to good beer that they are offering class winning FWK - either; buy them, they deserve every accolade and all the income that flows their way; - or learn to brew better.

I can understand people getting wound up about what they see as unfair competition. Should commercial brewers enter Home Brew Competitions personally I dont care, I dont brew for judges or for trophies I brew for me and for the love of the craft. If my beer was being judged alongside a commercial example I just hope mine stands up well.
Even tho three local pro brewers I know have home systems and should be welcome to my mind, they dont enter, thats their choice and I respect their decision. Mind you, you should hear some of what gets said by pro brewers about the competitions they enter, some of the comments would make paint blister.

Lastly I think exclusions arent going to work; there are too many shades of grey. If I add some extract to an AG is it an AG beer; or use some ISO hop to tweak the bitterness or a dash of cascade oil...
I think we should concentrate on brewing beer we want to drink, use competitions to get feedback and judge every beer on its merits on the day.
Brew for the love of brewing, there is no way to enforce honest (or even honourable) behaviour.
MHB

 

[winkle]

Another side issue with banning kits is I gather most states would loose valuable sponsership money, Coopers would no longer be interested and they are one of our main sponsers along with other brewshops whos main products are kits, at the state level Coopers also insist we award a trophy for the best kit beer of show.
We would also loose all the entry fees from the kit brewers entering this would possibly mean doubling the entry fees to cover costs.

Most people will say quite rightly that money should not dictate how we run the competitions but its another factor.
I can't see kits being banned ever anyway and don't think they should be.

If anyone does strongly feel this should happen or anything should change should join their state commitee and do all they can to make it happen, maybe oneday fwk may be banned if enough people agree but banning kits or even have them in a seperate section will most likely never happen.

There is no advantage in using kits and at the end of the day pre made extract is a valid ingredient in beer.

Home made beer is home made beer and i don't think they should be judged seperately based on how they were made, i do understand and respect those that feel differently.

I think that most brewers would want to include kits in competition, after all it is where most of us started, feedback is invaluable and if kits win a few then good luck. FWKs are where it all starts to fall apart, since really good FWKs can win competitions (as seen on the weekend) with limited effort/input from the 'brewer' and could cause many to ask 'why bother entering' since it isn't a level playing field.
I'd be happy to compete against, say, TB on home rigs anyday (even if he'd kick my arse) :icon_cheers: .

 

[drsmurto]

Anyone who spends all day every day brewing beer and gets paid to do so should not be allowed to enter an 'amateur' competition. It's not a level playing field if professionals, regardless of where they brew their beer (home or work) are allowed to play with the amateurs.

Think about how much better you would be as a brewer if work didn't get in the way. :icon_cheers:

That's just my opinion of the comps (and the rules with loopholes large enough to drive trucks through) not of the brewer in question.

 

[Keith the Beer Guy]

There is a reason. It is a brewing competition. Brewing requires a level of skill and ability in order to brew correct to style guidelines. Using a kit, be it in a tin, or a fresh wort is bypassing that brewing skill. If it is a brewing competition, then you should have to actually brew it in order to enter. Kits and FWKs are cheating by skipping half of the process.

Bonj, I think these are just lines in the sand.

Why should all-grain brewers be allowed to use malt they have purchased rather than malted themselves; perhaps they should have grown their own barley and harvested it themselves. The yeast likewise shouldn't come from a packet - where's the challenge there? People should source their own strain and culture it for use.

I think we choose the final product to be the point that matters. The beer. Anything else is just an arbitary choice: starting with kits is convenient for some - starting with malted barley suits others.

And I would mention that there are a lot of comments where people are dismissive of fermentation by and of itself. For my money it's the yeast and making life easy for the yeast that is the most important aspect of the art of brewing.

fwiw Keith

 

[Batz]

What a fantastic thread hey? No one spitting fire or crawing up anothers behind.

Very nice to have such a open fourm, thanks for all the posts :icon_chickcheers: ,bad luck some off the old time 'invisible brewers' don't have an input. (soft cocks)

I'm sure this will make a difference to brewing competitions in the future.

 

[warra48]

A free for all sounds good enough for me. Let's put our beers up against all comers. If we come out on top, well, so much the better.

I think it will be impossible to police what is or isn't "homebrewed" according to some definition or other. You would rely on the honesty of the brewer. At then end of the day, where is the satisfaction of winning or doing well in a competition where youknow within yourself you've cheated the rules?

 

[AndrewQLD]

What a fantastic thread hey? No one spitting fire or crawing up anothers behind.

Very nice to have such a open fourm, thanks for all the posts :icon_chickcheers: ,bad luck some off the old time 'invisible brewers' don't have an input. (soft cocks)

I'm sure this will make a difference to brewing competitions in the future.

Batz some of the old time "invisible brewers" don't have a lot to say because this has all been said before, I know I had plenty to say a couple of years ago as did a few others with no result and at that time no one really gave a ****.
This topic in one form or another is brought up every year and not just with the QABC but others around the country as well, I just think it's a very ambiguous rule and it would be very hard to draft a rule that was as iron clad as it would need to be, and even harder to enforce.

Andrew

 

[felten]

I have no problems competing against kit brewers, extract brewers, FWK brewers or commercial brewers. May the best beer win.

This argument is moot anyway, it's impossible to police.