Aabc And Subordinate State Competition Rules

[Ross]

BOP no - you didn't brew or ferment it

FWK no - you didn't brew it, you probably can't stuff it up if you're a reasonable fermentation controller and it's a good chance to hit a style without tweaking

Kits yes - you didn't brew it but you need to add some skill and ingredients other than water and yeast to make it hit a recognised style

Extract and All Grain definitely yes

Beer/wort must be made at home

Amatuer and professional brewers both welcome

The main problem is that someone lacking in ethics could enter a BOP or FWK beer and you would never know.

Cheers, Andrew.

Sorry, can't agree with that, there are many excellent kits on the market that only require water to hit a recognised style. If you want to include kits, it needs to be all.

cheers Ross

 

[bradsbrew]

Sorry, can't agree with that, there are many excellent kits on the market that only require water to hit a recognised style. If you want to include kits, it needs to be all.

cheers Ross

Ross, when you say kits, are you referring to cans?

Cheers

 

[bonj]

Sorry, can't agree with that, there are many excellent kits on the market that only require water to hit a recognised style. If you want to include kits, it needs to be all.

cheers Ross

I agree with you there, Ross.

I think if it's a brewing competition, you need to have brewed it to compete.
If you brewed it on equipment used to produce anything for sale, it is commercial and should not be allowed.
BOP shouldn't be allowed - My wife shouldn't be able to win a brewing competition by merely pitching yeast.
There is no skill in adding water and/or yeast and fermenting in a temperature controlled fridge.
If you didn't mash or boil it, you shouldn't be allowed to enter it.

The American NHC rules suggest that even low volume commercially owned pilot breweries (which seem to typically be around the 50L batch size mark) aren't allowed in their competition, even if the brew produced on them is only ever used for researching recipes for potential brewing on larger systems.

I don't care if it is impossible to police, that shouldn't be a consideration. The consideration should be if we don't want it allowed, then we make a rule to forbid it. If someone breaks the rule, they are committing fraud. Yes, some unscrupulous individuals will still break the rules, but if it is not expressly forbidden, then it is allowed.

 

[jyo]

If you didn't mash or boil it, you shouldn't be allowed to enter it.

This is also my view.
I wouldn't like to tell people I was awarded a medal for a cracking APA etc that was brewed by someone else.

 

[Paul H]

I believe that all illegal kit entries that arrive by boat should be processed judged off shore. <_<

:icon_cheers:

Paul

 

[bonj]

I believe that all illegal kit entries that arrive by boat should be processed judged off shore. <_<

:icon_cheers:

Paul

I think making jokes at the expense of displaced and desperate people to be in poor taste.

 

[drsmurto]

I agree with you there, Ross.

I think if it's a brewing competition, you need to have brewed it to compete.
If you brewed it on equipment used to produce anything for sale, it is commercial and should not be allowed.
BOP shouldn't be allowed - My wife shouldn't be able to win a brewing competition by merely pitching yeast.
There is no skill in adding water and/or yeast and fermenting in a temperature controlled fridge.
If you didn't mash or boil it, you shouldn't be allowed to enter it.

The American NHC rules suggest that even low volume commercially owned pilot breweries (which seem to typically be around the 50L batch size mark) aren't allowed in their competition, even if the brew produced on them is only ever used for researching recipes for potential brewing on larger systems.

I don't care if it is impossible to police, that shouldn't be a consideration. The consideration should be if we don't want it allowed, then we make a rule to forbid it. If someone breaks the rule, they are committing fraud. Yes, some unscrupulous individuals will still break the rules, but if it is not expressly forbidden, then it is allowed.

I don't agree with this.

I think there is more skill on the cold side of brewing than there is mashing/steeping/mixing can of good with hot water.

Yeast health, temperature control and the right temperature range for the yeast and beer style, pitching rates, racking, clarifying, conditioning/lagering, priming rates, bottle conditioning and sanitation all play much bigger roles in producing a clean, fault free beer.

Mixing crushed grain and water and then rinsing requires no skill at all and anybody can boil a liquid. Look at the $30 stovetop thread. h34r:

 

[Ross]

Ross, when you say kits, are you referring to cans?

Cheers

Primarilly yes - there are many 3kg cans for example from muntons & woodfordes that make excellent in style beers.
There are also plenty of worts at different levels of concentrations that still need water, so I can't honestly see how you can differentiate.
You can take my fresh worts & add your own malt & hops to change them. Allowing concentrate kits & not allowing ones that don't need diluting is just daft.


Cheers ross

 

[bradsbrew]

I don't agree with this.

I think there is more skill on the cold side of brewing than there is mashing/steeping/mixing can of good with hot water.

Yeast health, temperature control and the right temperature range for the yeast and beer style, pitching rates, racking, clarifying, conditioning/lagering, priming rates, bottle conditioning and sanitation all play much bigger roles in producing a clean, fault free beer.

Mixing crushed grain and water and then rinsing requires no skill at all and anybody can boil a liquid. Look at the $30 stovetop thread. h34r:

Bonj to add to this. The Sunshine Coast brewery cube fermenting challenge that BABBS hosted proved that techniques and fermenting can give an extreme difference in finished brews from the same batch.

Please note that I am against any FWK being used in a comp ( and really why bother enter something that you havnt made). But you cant say it doesnt take skill to ferment a cube.

Cheers

 

[bonj]

Mixing crushed grain and water and then rinsing requires no skill at all and anybody can boil a liquid. Look at the $30 stovetop thread. h34r:

I disagree here, I'm afraid.

Yes, you can go willy-nilly and still produce beer, but to do so and produce a to-style finished product, is a little more involved.

Mash temperatures and steps to yield wort with the correct in range level of residual and fermentable sugars, water chemistry, hop schedules, amounts, times.... There is plenty of skill involved in the hot side, and as you point out, also in the cold side, so it still comes down to needing the full process. Using a kit in any form is skipping part of that process and in my opinion, is cheating.

 

[bradsbrew]

Primarilly yes - there are many 3kg cans for example from muntons & woodfordes that make excellent in style beers.
There are also plenty of worts at different levels of concentrations that still need water, so I can't honestly see how you can differentiate.
You can take my fresh worts & add your own malt & hops to change them. Allowing concentrate kits & not allowing ones that don't need diluting is just daft.


Cheers ross

Fair enough good points.

Cheers

 

[bonj]

Bonj to add to this. The Sunshine Coast brewery cube fermenting challenge that BABBS hosted proved that techniques and fermenting can give an extreme difference in finished brews from the same batch.

Please note that I am against any FWK being used in a comp ( and really why bother enter something that you havnt made). But you cant say it doesnt take skill to ferment a cube.

Cheers

Yes. If you read my reply, you will see that I have conceded that point, but it doesn't really affect my argument to disallow kits.

 

[Malted]

I do not see the difference between FWK and cans of goop. Goop is just dehydrated FWK, is it not? It is kind of like comparing liquid malt to dry malt powder - same thing, different water content.
Ban one, ban both or allow one, allow both.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I do not see the difference between FWK and cans of goop. Goop is just dehydrated FWK, is it not? It is kind of like comparing liquid malt to dry malt powder - same thing, different water content.
Ban one, ban both or allow one, allow both.

Maybe it's the "fresh" bit of FWK? I don't think dehydrated wort is the same.

Kind of like the difference between making a meal with dehydrated veges as opposed to fresh veges.

Unless the F in FWK is false advertising.

Goomba

 

[bigfridge]

Have been thinking about a way to define what is eligible for armature competition and what isnt, how about:
Beer on which no excise is charged.
That rules out anything made on a commercial system including I believe BOP where a concessional rate of excise is levied, wort from a commercial brewery and most of the other issues raised are covered by this definition.
It leaves in Kits, Extract, FWK and naturally enough All Grain.
MHB

Good to see such an active discussion - where were all you guys when the rule was developed a few years ago ?

Firstly, I need to declare my position as I was the NSW deleate when rule "D3. Amateur Brews" was formulated. It came about because a NSW professional brewer was denied entry into the Nationals due the the unspoken definition of amateur. I provoked the discussion by seeking to define what a 'Professional Brewer' was.

- If I own a brewing company am I considered to be 'in the trade' ?
- What if I own shares in Fosters ?
- What if I drive a fork lift at XXXX and get to chat to the brewers over lunch ?
- What if I dig out the mashtun at Murray's ?
- What if I am a retired footballer that sells Tooheys beer to pubs ?
- What if I am Chuck Hann ?

These are all different aspects of being a 'professional' in the brewing industry. At the time I was branded a troublemaker and responsible for all evils including global warming !!!!! The level of personal abuse that I received from the 'AABA Mafia' was both astounding and shocking.

But one good thing about being an old bastard was that you both don't care about critisism and that you don't hear it (or can't read it without your glasses).

I was responsible for the developing the current wording of parragraph "D3. Amateur Brews:, but as I had pointed out during the ensuing discussions I disagreed with the way that it was finally worded (ie I didn't thgink that it went far enough in clarifying the situation). So, I voted against it, resigned from the AABA committee and promptly took my bat and ball (or tasting glass and BJCP style guidelines) and started my own competition held in association with the Bitter & Twisted competition.

This comp allows entries from 'all brewers whatsoever, without restriction' and only requires that the beer 'be not fermented on licensed premises and must be entered under the name of the brewer(s). This includes 'all beers not made as a commercial beer regardless of where the wort was made ie at home, in a brewshop, at BOP or obtained from a commercial brewery as a Beer Kit or Wort Pack'. Obviously this works on trust and depends on the ethics of the individuals concerned.

So this would allow Chuck Hann to take some wort home and as ong as he fermented, bottled and conditioned it at home and entered it under his own name - then it will be allowed in our NSW comps. But as this sort of 'dangerous behaviour' is frowned upon by the Amature establishment our Mr Hann is not able to enter his own beer into a state or national comp. This is why we sponsor all winners to enter the Nationals in the USA ie our 'best' takes on the best in the USA.

Now I can hear all the gasps of horror as I type this, so please let me inject some reality into the discussion. I have not entered the Nationals since 2000 and probably 2006 was the last time I entered the state comp. Despite brewing for around 30 years (at home) and commercially for a few years (developing and making 'award winning' fresh wort packs) I no longer consider myself an amateur (despite not earning a living from brewing). Brewing more than ten thousand litres of wort packs on commercial equipment, attending Siebel tast training sessions, owning a brewing libray worth about $2,000 and tasting thousands of beers in the USA I prefer to be involved in comps as an organiser and not participant. I also simply don't have time to enter comps.

I know many professional brewers (however that is defined) that are in the same boat and no longer enter comps (een though they would be entitled to do so under the AABA rules). Time is the biggest factor, but there is also the fact that if they are busy brewing great beers during the day they don't feel the need to brew at home or enter comps.

Furthermore, any 'run of the mill' commercial beers usually score poorly against well made amature beers. We always include a commercial calibration beer at the start of each judging session and mainstream beers are lucky to score 30/50. True craft beers from Potters, Murray's or Littles are standouts scoring 40-42.

We all know that mainstream beer are made for the massess who don't really like the flavour of beer, and I have seen many who 'brew for their living' struggle with infections, poor fermentation performance or inadequate recipe development. So amateur brewers have nothing to fear. Most of you will beat the pro's or at the very least learn something from them.

So, as has been expressed many times in this and the other threads - if you don't like the current AABC rules, discuss this with your state AABA delagates. If you still don't get the answer you want, either start or join another organisation that can support your view.

There is still plenty of scope for evolution in our competition scene.

Dave

 

[Millet Man]

Sorry, can't agree with that, there are many excellent kits on the market that only require water to hit a recognised style. If you want to include kits, it needs to be all.

cheers Ross

I see your point Ross but there are always compromises to be made and it would be counter productive to ban can kits and alienate 50% (or whatever the split is) of homebrewers from competitions IMHO.

The world ain't perfect and never will be.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[bradsbrew]

I see your point Ross but there are always compromises to be made and it would be counter productive to ban can kits and alienate 50% (or whatever the split is) of homebrewers from competitions IMHO.

The world ain't perfect and never will be.

Cheers, Andrew.

It would be interesting to see how many kit brewers enter comps to win or to get feedback. Has a kit beer ever won at National or state? How many kit beers get entered? How do you you include kit beers in the comp?

Have a separate style for kits that puts all the kits against each other regardless of style, then the winning brew goes into the BOS line up?
or
Allow them in for feedback only?
or
Have a totally separate national competition for kit brewers that could be organised by kit brewers and retailers that focus on kit brewing?

Gets a bit messy........

Cheers

 

[Batz]

I do not see the difference between FWK and cans of goop. Goop is just dehydrated FWK, is it not? It is kind of like comparing liquid malt to dry malt powder - same thing, different water content.
Ban one, ban both or allow one, allow both.

I'm with ya Malted !

There's an opening for a HBS to host a goop and FWK competition here, Ross?
Just keep it separate from AG

 

[yardy]

Have a separate style for kits that puts all the kits against each other regardless of style, then the winning brew goes into the BOS line up?

good idea, surely there's been comps that have done this or something similar, the feedback idea could work as well.

cheers

 

[The Scientist]

I take my involvement in the judging process as seriously as I do my brewing.

My passion for judging is due to my desire to fully understand the many beer styles and secondly to assist fellow brewers to improve the beers they produce.

I understand that most if not all home brewers start their journey into this hobby with kit brewing, either with cans or FWKs. Its these new brewers who need the most assistance from the brewing community to develop their brewing / fermenting techniques and thus brew better beer. I see amateur comps as the perfect platform to provide feedback to all brewers who enter their beer for critique against the BJCP.

I would hate to see kits removed from any comp but do see the justification to have them in either a separate category or included for feedback only. As has been said before these are brewing comps and I consider kits to be solely a fermentation procedure.

To take kits out of these comps all together or to leave them in under the current rules does very little to encourage brewers to advance their skills and motivate them to proceed to the next step of becoming a 'brewer' rather than purely a 'fermenter'.

As for the amateur V's Pro debate, I would like to see the comps remain open to all but tighten the rules to only allow home brewed beer and not BOP. If you are looking for feedback for your commercial beer then there are plenty of beer industry comps which amateurs aren't entitled to enter. What you brew at home for your own enjoyment and for the sake of fair competition should be welcomed in amateur comps.

We are all very passionate about brewing and at the end of the day I want to see our hobby prosper and a good gauge for this is the quantity and quality of entries in our comps, in both the BABB Comp and QABC this year I was very impressed with the level of competition. I strive to see our comps fair for all and people being rewarded for their efforts in which they spend making this hobby great.

Cheers,

TS

 

[bonj]

I take my involvement in the judging process as seriously as I do my brewing.

My passion for judging is due to my desire to fully understand the many beer styles and secondly to assist fellow brewers to improve the beers they produce.

I understand that most if not all home brewers start their journey into this hobby with kit brewing, either with cans or FWKs. Its these new brewers who need the most assistance from the brewing community to develop their brewing / fermenting techniques and thus brew better beer. I see amateur comps as the perfect platform to provide feedback to all brewers who enter their beer for critique against the BJCP.

I would hate to see kits removed from any comp but do see the justification to have them in either a separate category or included for feedback only. As has been said before these are brewing comps and I consider kits to be solely a fermentation procedure.

To take kits out of these comps all together or to leave them in under the current rules does very little to encourage brewers to advance their skills and motivate them to proceed to the next step of becoming a 'brewer' rather than purely a 'fermenter'.

As for the amateur V's Pro debate, I would like to see the comps remain open to all but tighten the rules to only allow home brewed beer and not BOP. If you are looking for feedback for your commercial beer then there are plenty of beer industry comps which amateurs aren't entitled to enter. What you brew at home for your own enjoyment and for the sake of fair competition should be welcomed in amateur comps.

We are all very passionate about brewing and at the end of the day I want to see our hobby prosper and a good gauge for this is the quantity and quality of entries in our comps, in both the BABB Comp and QABC this year I was very impressed with the level of competition. I strive to see our comps fair for all and people being rewarded for their efforts in which they spend making this hobby great.

Cheers,

TS

Very well said, mate. I agree with that completely. As I said in one of my initial posts above, including kits for feedback only is a viable solution. Not only does it encourage progression and better technique through feedback, but it would also encourage the progression to the full process if the competition side of things is the aim. I mean, let's face it... with the ghetto systems and single vessel systems and options available to us these days, there's really no reason anyone wanting to actually develop their brewing skills should hesitate.

I don't think I've weighed in on the amateur vs commercial debate when it comes to fully home brewed entries, and for what it's worth, I don't think professional brewers should be excluded from entering just because of their professional status. There are plenty of home brewers that have made the jump, but still love to make beer at home, and I don't think we should discourage that. After all, they may brew on commercial systems every day, but every system is different and just because they can make an AIBA award winning beer at work, doesn't mean they could do the same at home. A thorough understanding of the process and science still won't give you a thorough understanding of your individual system...

 

[dr K]

So, as has been expressed many times in this and the other threads - if you don't like the current AABC rules, discuss this with your state AABA delagates. If you still don't get the answer you want, either start or join another organisation that can support your view.

There is still plenty of scope for evolution in our competition scene.

Dave

A point that seems to have been either forgotten or brushed aside is that The Nationals are a Second Tier Competition
You simply cannot be in the Nationals if your beer has not pre-qualified through the States.
The Nationals are held once a year, the States have all year to run preliminary comps (ACT has at least three each year).
If the judges at State Level Comp are up to scratch then only the best State beers will get through to the Nationals.
...What is this sudden "if its not all grain its not beer" rubbish, I suggest a beat up.
....Why ban kits, because they "don't make good beer" or because they make better beer , if they make better beer then why so much encouragement from "brewers" to move away from kits to make better beer and why so many converts to all grain, no brainer really.
...If kits do not (and it seems to be consensus) make better beer then they will be culled at the State level comp.
...Banning kits from entry into comps means that start off brewers get no feedback.
...Qld seemed keen via the AABA to ban kits, well they could have banned kits from their own comp, thus increasing the quality of their beer and possibly giving them a better chance overall to win the Nats.(?)

As I noted earlier, keep your back to wind.

K

 

[stl]

As I said in one of my initial posts above, including kits for feedback only is a viable solution.

I'm sure this has been said before but does it have to be "feedback only"? A couple of prizes (e.g. "best kit stout", or one for each category, along with a "champion kit beer") would surely help to encourage the kit brewers to enter and get valuable feedback. (Maybe the prize can be a BIAB bag? )

This still needs a clear definition of "kit beer." I'm in favour of the one "using any pre-hopped extract" or similar.

 

[crozdog]

1st up - I must admit to only reading the 1st & last pages of this thread - so if I missed something Oh well.

IMHO as a judge I'm comparing the beer presented to me against a set of guidelines. I have no idea about who or how it was made. The appraisal is purely that beer against the style. Paraphrasing The Scientist I attempt to provide constructive criticism & provide feedback to allow the brewer to improve.

In relation to "professionals", Working in a commercial operation is very different to what is done on a home / amateur scale. I don't believe that being commercial necessarily makes the brewer any better - many are simply process workers h34r: . I know of guys who happen to work in breweries but who make their own beers at home and who do enter those beers in comps - cause they are looking for feedback on THEIR beers - not those they make at work. Should they be banned for that? I think not, but would object strongly if they pulled a couple of bottles off the line & entered them as their own.

as far as FWK's go, again I have no issue as the production of the wort is only a small part of the finished product - checkout this image for a reasonable breakdown



For a long long time I've believed that the focus on recipe formulation is wrong. Sure it's a start but not everything. many people seem to forget that!

Plus as Ross says the brewer can add more malt / hops etc to change the base wort. Yeast choice, Pitching rate, yeast health, ferment temp, ferment length, priming rate, dry hopping etc etc radically impact the finished beer.

I've witnessed this many times where I've hosted a big brew day - 10 people have taken cubes of wort home & fermented (sometimes with the same yeast). At a later time we've got together & tasted the results - radically different beers from the same base!!! Have also seen this in a comp where 1 brewer lagered in bulk & the other lagered in the bottle - difference was 2nd in category to 5th! These 2 brewers were both present on the particular brew day, worked on the recipe as well as the mash, boil etc. Whose beer was it? The Hosts? Whoever owned the mash tun or the kettle? Dunno.

Restricting comps to say only AG beer is not going to help improve the quality of home brewed beers or their brewers. Rather it will introduce / enforce a level of snobbery that isn't needed. Having an open attitude, educating brewers & judges (of all levels) as well as forging links with the micro brewery community all help - after all we're all passionate about beer & brewing. :icon_chickcheers:

Any way that's my $0.02

 

[Silo Ted]

From now on Im only entering case-swap beers with my name on the entry form.

 

[Stuster]

I totally agree with you, Croz, and those who've said things along the same lines. Fermentation is definitely important and hard to get exactly right (and I say that as the one who fermented the losing beer that Croz is talking about!)

I guess it depends on our priorities. In my opinion, beer competitions are there for the feedback, with the prizes as secondary. In that case, all can enter as all will benefit.