Aabc And Subordinate State Competition Rules

[Florian]

all slightly :icon_offtopic:

I also agree with a limit on entries as carpet bombing really isn't fair on those who are only entering their beers they deem to be up to standard (not to say that some who enter a number of beers are of lesser quality).

Having entered into QABC for the first time, and only started brewing about 18 month ago, I was aiming to get as much feedback as possible from experienced brewers/judges. Especially for beers I couldn't enter into the BABBs comp due to number restrictions and the fact that only two entries in the entire lager category are allowed.

So I entered 13 beers, most of which I thought were of decent quality. Two of them I wasn't sure about, and the points I got for these beers confirm that there obviously was a reason for me not being sure. I have also a fair number of other beers lying around that I haven't entered, either because i knew what is wrong with them or I already got feedback in other comps (like my Fly PA, which i haven't entered). So out of these 13 entries I got 10 medals and a number of placings.

However, in my lack of knowledge of how the champion brewer gets established (I honestly never looked at how that worked, as it didn't really interest me), I got a bit 'scared' when i saw my high ranking on the champion brewer list. I had heard the term carpet bombing before and thought that I only got so high due to my large number of entries.

However, once I looked into it, I discovered that it's purely the results from the best four beers from each brewer that count towards champion brewer. For that it doesn't matter if someone enters 4 or 22 beers. In this years comp, even three beers (with three first places achieved) would have been enough to take out champion brewer (with Ross' entries now withdraw).

For that reason i shall no longer feel guilty for entering 13 beers and also note that others that have entered even more beers are further down the list.

What I am guilty of though is not being available to help out on the days. I agree with an earlier comment from Bribie, if everyone would enter that many beers, it would be hard to run the comp to a satisfying level. I will do my very best next year to cancel out these weekends well in advance to be able to help, unfortunately i wasn't able to do so this year.

I don't mind if the number of entries would be limited in future comps, but for me it was a great opportunity to get feedback on beers that I couldn't hand in to other comps. Given the way the champion brewer is identified, I don't really think that it is unfair on other brewers to enter a larger number of beers, as everyone who enters at least three or four beers has the same chance to take out champion brewer.

Happy to hear other opinions on this though, in case I have missed something obvious.


EDIT: added stuff about beers not entered.

 

[argon]

So what do we need to do to change this?... Ross has (obviously <_< ) taken the first step to bring about discussion and potential change by submitting the FWKs and stirring the ****.

How can we get the guidelines amended for next year to be more reflective of the attitude of the current brewing community? Bitching about it online is fun and all, but do we write to someone? Send death threats? or offer to give someone and object lesson?

Would like to know what we can do, so next year it's in line with wider expectations.

 

[Howlingdog]

Yet, to quote the AABC rules:

Yet, to quote the AABC rules:
QUOTE
The name of the competition is the Australian AMATEUR BREWING Championship.

You pay to enter - Amateur
They pay for you to enter - Professional

 

[DU99]

People have to remember you can buy unhopped malt extract.

 

[daemon]

The poll doesn't quite match what I think, but to me I think kits / kits & bits / FWK / BOP beers should be submitted for feedback only. This is probably something that should be encouraged and possibly one or two trophies for "kit" beers. Most of us started out with kits and it'd be great to give some constructive feedback to those who are trying to better their brewing.

I'm split in regards to professional brewers entering amateur comps but I think the limited amount of people this would apply to probably means it wouldn't be fair to exclude them. As long as they brewed the beer at home using their own personal equipment then I think it would be fair for them to enter. I'm not sure why any professional craft brewer (not specifically aimed at Ross, I'm using the terms generically) would really want to enter amateur comps but can understand those working for large commercial companies and enjoy brewing would.

 

[schooey]

People have to remember you can buy unhopped malt extract.

Of course you can... but it would be considered a base ingredient. You would still need to combine it with other base ingredients and brew a beer i.e. water, hops, specialty grains etc. If you use a FWK or a can, the majority of the base ingredients and the brewing has already been done for you in a commercial environment.

Like I said... semantics

 

[Parks]

For me the issue with FWK is how close to the actual finished product they are.

If you are good enough to take a tin of Coopers Lager and win a prize you deserve it. I still do think there should be a different category for kits, but only so they have an even playing field with each other (although, does a kit with partial mash get to enter?)

For me, I'd allow everything except FWK, or allow FWK for judging only and not prizes.

I have to commend the character you showed Ross, some people would not have taken the blow up the same as you. It may have done what you wanted, and that's get enough discussion to change the rules.

 

[1975sandman]

What if they had 2 main categories at a show:

All grain
Premade malt, eg tin, FWK, etc

and they be judged in their own category, then the best from each category be put up against each other to be labelled BOS?

My thoughts only.....

 

[petesbrew]

I guss can see the thoughts people have on an "unfair advantage" if a Commercial Brewer does an AG at home and enters it.

But are some people bitter that their AG has been beaten by a knk? So joe blow gets a farmland kit, raids the kitchen cupboard, brews it in a hot garage within spitting distance of the compost heap, and pulls a Bradbury, taking out the best specialty "chilli nutmeg draught".
Congrats to him. There's nothing like bragging to your mates when your beer scores a place.

Pity discussions like this pop up - like an old wives club.
Inhouse or offshoot comps, best KnK, or AG, do whatever you like... keep the nationals open to all.

 

[Batz]

For those that are in favour of kits, but not FWKs, what is your rationale here? Are not FWKs just less concentrated versions of the same product?

I can see your point here Bonj, and thinking about it I must agree with you. It's not as straight forward as it seems.

I have to commend the character you showed Ross, some people would not have taken the blow up the same as you.

The choice would have been? Ross was only following the rules of which he knows much better than me but man that could have done some damage to his name, and possibly has in some circles?




A few years back these competitions were smaller and simpler. With the huge interest in home brewing of date I think the powers to be need to sit down and take a fresh look at the rule book.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

My random thoughts.

I'm happy with the status quo as to police the comps would be too hard. What you want - stat decs with each entry to say I brewed this. ?

Ross will kill me for saying this, but not all FWK are good. Caveat emptor. I've had some good ones, I had some bad ones. You can bugger up a fresh wort kit by poor yeast management, lapse temperature control etc. Done it myself. I have made one (really, seriously) good FWK beer that I was happy to drink, but I wouldn't enter it into a competition cos I didn't brew it. Self regulation. Seems we hear that a fair bit in this (mainly) de-regulated market society of ours.

As for kits, if you can make a kit beer that tastes as good as a AG, good luck to you. You deserve to win a prize. has been done, but 100 to 1 shots occasionally win races. They'll occasionally (rarely) place in comps. If I could make a kit beer that tastes great, I'd do it all the time. Save buggering around with mashing, sparging etc.

Seperate classes for these beers? Okay at minor level, but at state then national levels, all in best in. The style guidelines are there, brew what you like to meet them and be judged.

Carpet bombers - love them. The more entries, the more entry fees, the better the prizes. People want to brew lots of good beer and enter shows, good luck to them. Let someone make ten kit beers and enter ten catagories. Chances are they'll finish at the bottom of each catagory but the prizes coffers are better for it. Come in spinner!

Professional brewers in amateur comps .. why the hell not. There are so many brews in the Australian craft market at the moment that would struggle to score 30 per judge in a decent comp. Besides, which professional brewers have time or desire to brew for the comps? Who are professionals - Ross with his wort kits should now be classified as a professional? Probably.

Guys, I think too many people are getting hung up on this issue. Schooey's semantics quotes are right. Stop worrying too much about the issue. The best beers being made at the moment are by talented home brewers using standard AG methods. The results of all major beer comps since I've had an interest in this matter show this. Webber, Mitchell, Cranston, Asher .. a dozen more, all constantly take the major gongs and they are all amateur AG brewers. It'll be the same at the Nationals this year. A few new names will be added to the honour rolls.

Stop worrying, leave things as they are, have a home brew and see you in Adelaide for the Nationals.

 

[Parks]

The choice would have been? Ross was only following the rules of which he knows much better than me but man that could have done some damage to his name, and possibly has in some circles?

There was no other good choice, doesn't mean others wouldn't have got their back up. Either way, the politics are the only winner here :huh:

 

[schooey]

A brief read here of the rules of the biggest beer competition in the world puts it quite briefly;



<SNIP>( b ) Your homebrew cannot have been brewed on equipment used to brew beverages for any commercial purpose, whether for commercial research, production or any other purpose, including equipment at brew-on-premises establishments.

( c ) You must give the names of all brewers who helped in the brewing.

( d ) No employee of the Brewers Association may enter.

( e ) Judges may not judge a category they have entered, and stewards may not steward a category they have entered. <SNIP>

Sure, there's still a grey area there around the FWK vs Can argument; You could argue that the FWK is essentially a beverage whereas a can needs a bit more work to make it a beverage, but there is no mention of Pro vs Amateur. It only revolves around the commercial equipment argument. I kind of like it.... although it does mean if I start my cunning plan of producing 750ml FWTKs (Fresh wort Tallie Kits... just add yeast and an Oztop and ferment in the bottle) from my Braumeister, I'll void my ability to enter any comps...

 

[bonj]

A brief read here of the rules of the biggest beer competition in the world puts it quite briefly;



<SNIP>( b ) Your homebrew cannot have been brewed on equipment used to brew beverages for any commercial purpose, whether for commercial research, production or any other purpose, including equipment at brew-on-premises establishments.

( c ) You must give the names of all brewers who helped in the brewing.

( d ) No employee of the Brewers Association may enter.

( e ) Judges may not judge a category they have entered, and stewards may not steward a category they have entered. <SNIP>

I like that definition. If fits well with my view of the whole commercial vs amateur thing. One could argue that FWKs and kits have been brewed on commercial equipment and are therefore ineligible for entry. But like all rules and laws, it is open to interpretation.... that's why we need courts and lawyers...

 

[raven19]

...have a home brew and see you in Adelaide for the Nationals.

I'll drink to that! Looking forward to it. :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

For me, a simple way to look at it would be access.

Brewers of any level have access to u-brew it, tinned kits, fresh wort kits etc but not all have access to commercial brewing equipment.

 

[Josh]

If I fermented a FWK or hopped extract I doubt I would enter it in a comp. I just don't think I would have done enough of the "brewing".

BOP is another issue and I think it could fit into homebrew comps. Consider the kits you can buy from More Beer! for instance. I can get online and buy a Malty Brown Ale from them, have the extract, hops and yeast delivered to my door and brew a full boil extract beer. I may know nothing about those ingredients, but I am following the instructions on the information sheet, adding hops to a full boil at the specified times, chilling down and fermenting. This is essentially what BOP does, is it not?

---

If I won lotto tomorrow and bought a turnkey craft brewery operation. Would that make me a better brewer than any of the aforementioned medal winners? No.

So if I continued to plug away on weekends in my garage, with my BIAB/no-chill set up, I would still want to enter those beers in the NSW AABC.

Working for a brewery shouldn't have any bearing on whether you brewed your homebrew in an amateur setting.

 

[winkle]

If I fermented a FWK or hopped extract I doubt I would enter it in a comp. I just don't think I would have done enough of the "brewing".

BOP is another issue and I think it could fit into homebrew comps. Consider the kits you can buy from More Beer! for instance. I can get online and buy a Malty Brown Ale from them, have the extract, hops and yeast delivered to my door and brew a full boil extract beer. I may know nothing about those ingredients, but I am following the instructions on the information sheet, adding hops to a full boil at the specified times, chilling down and fermenting. This is essentially what BOP does, is it not?

---

If I won lotto tomorrow and bought a turnkey craft brewery operation. Would that make me a better brewer than any of the aforementioned medal winners? No.

So if I continued to plug away on weekends in my garage, with my BIAB/no-chill set up, I would still want to enter those beers in the NSW AABC.

Working for a brewery shouldn't have any bearing on whether you brewed your homebrew in an amateur setting.

Depends on the BOP, you really only have to be there to pitch the yeast is my understanding of the legal requirement.

Edit: PS. Stillscottish got a gold brewing on dodgy equipment older than me, just goes to show.

 

[jayse]

I disagree with those that mention kits should be entered seperately kit vs kit, ag vs ag etc, you do not judge beers against each other you judge them against guidelines and either way they will score the same. Some people seem a bit precious not wanting any kit brewer to beable to take home a prize, why? there is no reason why you should even know how it was made.

I don't care how the beer was made and have no need to know how it was made, you judge how it looks, smells and tastes.

Did any fwks actually take out top prizes? eitherway I see no reason to try and have them banned, it is still an amatuer beer.

Maybe bop beers should not be allowed because you are essentially paying for beer not wort, there is exice paid and you walk out of a comercial brewery with ready to drink beer, its not like they are great beers and no real advantage as such anyway but you still brought beer not something you take home and turn into beer. Even if you did help make it you are still buying beer.

I don't see anything that needs changing other then maybe bop.

 

[bonj]

I disagree with those that mention kits should be entered seperately kit vs kit, ag vs ag etc, you do not judge beers against each other you judge them against guidelines and either way they will score the same. Some people seem a bit precious not wanting any kit brewer to beable to take home a prize, why? there is no reason why you should even know how it was made.

There is a reason. It is a brewing competition. Brewing requires a level of skill and ability in order to brew correct to style guidelines. Using a kit, be it in a tin, or a fresh wort is bypassing that brewing skill. If it is a brewing competition, then you should have to actually brew it in order to enter. Kits and FWKs are cheating by skipping half of the process.