A Bit Of Advice On Bottling After Cc'ing

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Rob S

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Hi all, just need a bit of advice/reassurance after bottling a lager.

I fermented at 10*C with SAF Lager 34/70 for roughly 2 weeks

3 Day diacetyl rest at 18*C as it tasted of butterscotch

Carefully stirred in some gelatin finings and let the temp get back to 10*C over 48 hours

Racked to secondary and CC'd for 2 weeks at 2*C

Took the secondary out of the fridge and let warm to room temperature

Had a quick taste and it was still butterscotch so gave the small trub a careful stir and left at room temp for 24 hours

Bottled into tallies using bottle priming. Bottles are at room temperature (currently about 20 degrees or so) and plan to keep them there a fortnight before chilling again for extended bottle cc'ing

I ran out of bottles and had about a litre of lager left so gave it a taste and it was butterscotch dammit!

I put the leftover litre into a glass demijohn and put in about a quarter of a cup of white sugar and capped with an airlock, just to see if it would kick start the yeast

That was about 20 hours ago and there's nothing happening

I sat the demijohn in the sink and filled it with 25*C water, and an hour later still nothing in the demijohn, apart from a few early bubbles I put down to expansion from the warmer water

So my 2 questions are: -

1) Will the bottles carbonate or does my experiment with the demijohn tell me that there isn't enough yeast left in suspension to do the job, despite disturbing the trub before bottling

2) If it all goes to plan and does carbonate up, do you think the carbonation process/aging the bottle at room temp for a fortnight will take care of some of the butterscotch flavour, or am I left with what I'll call my "premium low fizz butterscotch lager"............

My paranoia tells me this batch could be flat as a tack and butterscotch flavoured. Soda stream is on special at Big W atm so I can always force carb I suppose.

Cheers
Rob
 

mwd

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Cannot help with the butterscotch except hoping it will go with time in the bottle. Don't worry too much about bottles carbing up as there will be be ample amounts of yeast in suspension it may just take a bit of time depending on what temperature you are storing them at.
 

jacknohe

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So my 2 questions are: -

1) Will the bottles carbonate or does my experiment with the demijohn tell me that there isn't enough yeast left in suspension to do the job, despite disturbing the trub before bottling

2) If it all goes to plan and does carbonate up, do you think the carbonation process/aging the bottle at room temp for a fortnight will take care of some of the butterscotch flavour, or am I left with what I'll call my "premium low fizz butterscotch lager"............

My paranoia tells me this batch could be flat as a tack and butterscotch flavoured. Soda stream is on special at Big W atm so I can always force carb I suppose.

Cheers
Rob
Wow! I've never had the Butterscotch experience with any yeast. Maybe I've been lucky. But I've had a few DMS problems so that's another story...

After a cold conditioning period, I find a Lager yeast will take a while to rouse and carbonate. It could take a week or two.
 

Rob S

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Ok I'm impatient. Maybe I'll keep the demijohn at room temp as an indication of how the bottled beer is going. The butterscotch issue, I think it could be because of pitching at 20*C or so then reducing to 10*C. I'm going to try a cold pitch with 2 x yeast next time.
 

fcmcg

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Ok I'm impatient. Maybe I'll keep the demijohn at room temp as an indication of how the bottled beer is going. The butterscotch issue, I think it could be because of pitching at 20*C or so then reducing to 10*C. I'm going to try a cold pitch with 2 x yeast next time.
I was under the impression that butterscotch flavours are because of not enough of the dms pre-cursors were driven off during your boil...your yeast has nothing to do with dms flavours , but a diacytl rest allows the yeast to help get rid of those flavours...
Ferg
 

pyrosx

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I was under the impression that butterscotch flavours are because of not enough of the dms pre-cursors were driven off during your boil...your yeast has nothing to do with dms flavours , but a diacytl rest allows the yeast to help get rid of those flavours...
Ferg
Nope. Dms is creamed corn flavour. Diacetyl is butterscotch.
 

[email protected]

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I was under the impression that butterscotch flavours are because of not enough of the dms pre-cursors were driven off during your boil...your yeast has nothing to do with dms flavours , but a diacytl rest allows the yeast to help get rid of those flavours...
Ferg
DMS produces cooked vegetable flavour, corn and cabbage - inadequate boil.

Diacetyl produces the butterscotch flavour - poor yeast handling
 

jacknohe

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Ok I'm impatient. Maybe I'll keep the demijohn at room temp as an indication of how the bottled beer is going. The butterscotch issue, I think it could be because of pitching at 20*C or so then reducing to 10*C. I'm going to try a cold pitch with 2 x yeast next time.
Yeah, I used to pitch only slightly warmer, like 2-4c more than what I'm aiming for and then cool to the desired temp.

Now, I'm in the habit of making a good 3.5-4L starter (for a 20L batch) if I'm using a Lager yeast and just pitch it at the desired temp. I only use my fresh wort and not malt extract to create the starter so there is a wait period. Then I ensure I've raised the ferment temp by approx 3-4c when its near the end and leave it for a few days before CC'ing. Have never had the butterscotch issue. Plenty of others though... :blink:
 

Nick JD

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What's the recipe. A lot of people don't know what diacetyl tastes like.

It tastes like the smell of the cinema - not like a werther's original.

Here's the BJCP "Doctoring Beers" additions to make beer taste faulty. Note what they use.

Guidelines for Doctoring Beers
Flavor Adulterant Quantity
Sour/Acidic USP lactic acid 0.4 ml (1/3. tsp of solution of 1/8 tsp lactic acid plus 3/8 tsp distilled water)
Sour/Acidic White wine vinegar 3/4 tsp
Bitterness iso-hop extract 1 or 2 drops, to taste
Sweetness sucrose (table sugar) 1/4 tsp dissolved in 1/2 tsp water
Astringency Grape tannin 2 tsp. of solution of 1/8 tsp tannin dissolved in 5 Tbsp water
Phenolic Chloroseptic 0.4 ml (1/3. tsp of solution of 1/8 tsp Chloroseptic plus 3/8 tsp distilled water)
Clovelike Clove solution Make solution of 8 cloves soaked in 3 oz. of beer and add liquid to taste (about 4 tsp)
Sulfitic Potassium metabisulfite* Make solution of one tablet dissolved in 3 oz. of beer and add to taste (about 1/2 tsp)
Alcoholic Ethanol 2 tsp (increases alcohol by 2.7%). 3 tsp vodka may also be used
Sherry-like Dry sherry 3/4 tsp
Nutty Almond extract 0.1 ml (1/8 tsp of solution consisting of 1/8 tsp. almond extract plus 5/8 tsp. distilled water)
Papery/Stale N/A Open bottles to air, reseal, and keep at 100 F or warmer for several days
Winey White wine 2 Tbsp
Diacetyl Butter extract 4-5 drops
Estery Banana extract 6-7 drops
Lightstruck N/A Expose commercial beer in green bottles to sunlight for 1-3 days.
 

Rob S

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Uh... Ok it was a munich lager with a #60 brew enhanced from a website.

Tastes like shit.

Buttery, slick. Sickly sweet aftertaste. Probably the furtherest thing from dry & bitter. Not rancid butter thank god......but.....
 

Nick JD

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Uh... Ok it was a munich lager with a #60 brew enhanced from a website.

Tastes like shit.

Buttery, slick. Sickly sweet aftertaste. Probably the furtherest thing from dry & bitter. Not rancid butter thank god......but.....
What was the final gravity before you did your diacetyl rest? Sweet and buttery sounds like "not finished" fermenting.

You might find anyway that it gets cleaned up in the bottles at room temp.

What's #60 brew enhanced?
 

raven19

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I would be tempted next time to let the lager ferment for 3-4 weeks prior to raising the temp if you can afford the fridge space while fermenting.
 

Rob S

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Yar I'm researching some stuff now that says for layers, pils etc if you have temp control (10*C) then forget OG & FG and just do primary for 4 weeks (4,4,4 rule) then secondary cc at 2*C for 4 weeks then bottle for 4 weeks.

The kit was http://www.liquorcraft.com.au/wa.asp?idWeb...p;idDetails=108


Look for #60 German Lager. I did it as per instructions
"Make a Brewcraft Munich Lager with a #60 German Lager Kit Converter +500g Brewcraft light malt powder"

I upgraded & used 34/70 yeast. Threw the can yeast in with the boil.

I think I pitched too high, then didn't diacetyl rest long enough. I think i needed to taste test more to ensure the butterscotch was gone.

I have an AG pils in the fermenter and an AG Kolsch ready to go. Next one is a stout made from my mates Hindmarsh barley which I'm currently experimenting with malting & roasting. So exciting thinking about making a beer completely from scratch, from unmalted barley from his father in laws farm and the free range hops growing by the side of the road along his favourite motorbike route. So rustic. So caveman. So cool. Can't wait.
 

kario

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I have no idea 'why'...but it's obvious your yeast died somehwere along the line.
 

Rob S

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I have no idea 'why'...but it's obvious your yeast died somehwere along the line.
Don't confuse the can yeast that i threw in with the boil with the 34/70 that i rehydrated & pitched at 20*C.
 

Rob S

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Stop reading this source of information. It's rubbish.
I know the 'why' but can you tell me what's so important about gravity for lager. Apart from knowing that fermentation is happening, what's the benefit. If you follow 4,4,4 for lager why bother.
 

black_labb

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Gravity is great for learning about your beer and beer making. If you are following someone elses advice you should be still learning.

Also you want to make sure your yeast hasn't stalled
 

donburke

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let me get this right ....


you club all your yeast over the head with gelatine so they wont swim

you then peform an act of genocide, leaving most of the yeast to die in primary after you racked

you then practically freeze the balls off the few remaining survivors for a couple of weeks



then you expect the few yeast cells that survived your torture to jump up and do the tango ?



you have thrown a whole cow to a person to eat after you just slaughtered most of their family then sent them to antarctica without any food for a couple of weeks

patience my friend, they will eat the cow, but it will take time
 

manticle

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I know the 'why' but can you tell me what's so important about gravity for lager. Apart from knowing that fermentation is happening, what's the benefit. If you follow 4,4,4 for lager why bother.
Yeast doesn't work to a calendar schedule. Look up stalled yeast, think about yeast that has finished fermenting (slowly as lager yeasts do) but not finished cleaning up byproducts. Use you hydrometer, for every beer, every time. 4/4/4 means nothing 100% of the time. Hydro reading does (unless hydrometer is befucked)

Measure FG. It isn't hard and it can be informative.
 

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