60min Or 90min Mashes?

[Steve]

Why do some people mash for 60 mins and others for 90 mins? I mash for 60 mins, drain the wort, top up with sparge water and let sit for another 15 mins (sealed) before draining all the wort in the boil pot. Does this mean I am mashing for 90 mins or 60 mins :blink: if you know what I mean?
Cheers
Steve

 

[peas_and_corn]

You count the time from adding the first lot of water to when you drain it- not including sparge times.

So you are mashing for 60 minutes.

 

[Steve]

You count the time from adding the first lot of water to when you drain it- not including sparge times.

So you are mashing for 60 minutes.

OK - thanks P&C....so whats the advantage of doing a 90 min mash? Ive also read that everything actually converts in the first 20 minutes or so?
Cheers
Steve

 

[peas_and_corn]

This is something that is debated. I do 90 min mashes myself, and will probably continue to do so. Yes, a majority of the conversion happens in the first 20 minutes which is the argument the people who mash for 60 minutes use- their explanation being is that any other conversion will happen during the sparge. The counter argument is that the mash is at a lower temperature than the sparge, and thus giving the enzymes that work at that lower temperature more time to work and convert more sugars there- and giving the other enzymes the opportunity to convert at the higher temperature.

Well, that's how I understand it, anyway.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

As you sparge at a higher temp (eg 78-80C) enzyme conversion is stopped.

That's why some people do a mash out for ten minutes before sparging to stop the conversion.



Edit:

From J Palmers - "How to Brew"

What is Mashout?

Before the sweet wort is drained from the mash and the grain is rinsed (sparged) of the residual sugars, many brewers perform a mashout. Mashout is the term for raising the temperature of the mash to 170F prior to lautering. This step stops all of the enzyme action (preserving your fermentable sugar profile) and makes the grainbed and wort more fluid. For most mashes with a ratio of 1.5-2 quarts of water per pound of grain, the mashout is not needed. The grainbed will be loose enough to flow well. For a thicker mash, or a mash composed of more than 25% of wheat or oats, a mashout may be needed to prevent a Set Mash/Stuck Sparge. This is when the grain bed plugs up and no liquid will flow through it. A mashout helps prevent this by making the sugars more fluid; like the difference between warm and cold honey. The mashout step can be done using external heat or by adding hot water according to the multi-rest infusion calculations. (See chapter 16.) A lot of homebrewers tend to skip the mashout step for most mashes with no consequences.

 

[DrewCarey82]

Jayse actually reckons the best way to sparge is with boiling water mix and then drain!

Shit this confuses me sometimes.

 

[Stuster]

I think the idea of sparging up to about 78C comes from the fly sparging tradition. If you are batch sparging, there doesn't seem to be any reason why you can't use boiling water. The higher temperature will help with the run off as the Palmer quote says.

My mash time varies depending on what I have to do (mostly putting kids to bed, cooking etc.) while the grain is mashing. Sometimes it's an hour, sometimes two or even more.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

Re: Sparge temp, is tannin extraction related to purely the over rinse of grain? Or does the water temp play a part?

 

[Steve]

I think the idea of sparging up to about 78C comes from the fly sparging tradition. If you are batch sparging, there doesn't seem to be any reason why you can't use boiling water. The higher temperature will help with the run off as the Palmer quote says.

My mash time varies depending on what I have to do (mostly putting kids to bed, cooking etc.) while the grain is mashing. Sometimes it's an hour, sometimes two or even more.

Interesting all - thanks for that.
Steve

 

[DrewCarey82]

Steve if your like and pouring out of a rectangular esky thats 15 litres in volume be bloody careful the steam is attrocious and nearly cause me to drop the bloody thing and maim myself. - Scarily enough after the mash my girlfriend had been holding the strainer luckily she was doing something else or I would have burnt her bad.

As soon as possible I'll be investing in a 40-60 litre cylinder esky with a tap.... Much safer!!!!!!!

 

[Steve]

Sam - if you can batch sparge with either 78 or 100 degree water, I would have thought temp of water wouldnt have anything to do with tannin extraction. Im sure ive read its over rinsing?

 

[JasonY]

I was under the impression that tannin extraction increases with both wort pH and temperature. Fly spargers can run the risk of increasing the wort pH by oversparging more so than batch spargers I believe.

In terms of it being ok to dump 15-20L on your grains for batch sparging I have no idea but I wont be trying it

 

[Jye]

Jayse actually reckons the best way to sparge is with boiling water mix and then drain!

Shit this confuses me sometimes.

I posted this not long ago and was referring to batch sparging. My sparge water needs to be around 90-100C to get the grain bed temp into the high 70's which will help dissolve the sugars. But as Stuster said this temp is probable irrelevant when batch sparging.

Back on topic here is a parragraph from How To Brew.

As always, time changes everything; it is the final factor in the mash. Starch conversion may be complete in only 30 minutes, so that during the remainder of a 60 minute mash, the brewer is working the mash conditions to produce the desired profile of wort sugars. Depending on the mash pH, water ratio and temperature, the time required to complete the mash can vary from under 30 minutes to over 90. At a higher temperature, a stiffer mash and a higher pH, the alpha amylase is favored and starch conversion will be complete in 30 minutes or less. Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones, resulting in a more fermentable wort, but these alpha-favoring conditions are deactivating the beta; such a mash is self-limiting.

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

Steve,

Fair enough, I've always sparged around 78-80ish as a matter of course and never really contemplated the effects of a higher temp sparge, which there looks like there is none of.


DC82 - I take it you're pouring out of the esky, through a strainer into your kettle? Do yourself a favour and put a ball valve tap in your esky and make a false bottom of some sort.

 

[Justin]

Most of the time a 90min mash is used in situations where your mash is low in converting power.

This can come from a base malt that has a lower diastatic power (enzyme converting power) or you have a large proportion of adjucts in your mash (eg. rice etc) or in situations where you don't have a lot of strong base malts in there (eg. high munich malt content). The presence of adjuncts (which have no diastatic power) makes a similar situation to the first one I proposed where your enzyme levels in the mash might be a bit low-hence it makes them slow to convert. The extra time is to allow these mashes longer to convert.

However, this 90 min mash schedule tends to be a based a bit on historic time points that was used when base malts were a bit less modified than most of what we use today. Thats also part of the reason the Germans decocted I'm pretty sure. It's sometimes hard for people to let go of the old "stuff that works" situations, plus everyone tends to do things differently so your mileage may vary. Throw in a few things like less than ideal mash pH and you can see why some people need to mash for 90mins.

Malts like your JW Pils and Trad ale tend to have high conversion power and so tend to be super quick. Your other malts that are kilned a bit more, like Munich and dark wheat etc, tend to have lower diastatic power because the kilning kills off some enzymes. Your crystal malts, chocolate and roast malts have no diastatic enzyme.

I think most of the malts these days are pretty good, but I think some of the british marris otters can be a little lower (don't quote me). It isn't uncommon for a mash to be converted in 20mins using Australian base malt but people tend to let the mash sit for the 60mins to allow the more intact kernals of malt to be broken down and the enzymes to get inside.

An iodine test for the presence of starch (iodophor works for this) gives you a pretty good idea of how convertion is progressing.

Pretty much though, 60mins is just a generous ball park figure that covers most situations. If you start recomending people mash for 20mins your going to get those situations when conversion isn't finished etc and create problems for people.

Hope it helps. Justin


Edit: WoW. I took way too long to write that. Heaps of responses since I hit the reply button. Anyway, hope you got the answers to your questions.

 

[DrewCarey82]

DC82 - I take it you're pouring out of the esky, through a strainer into your kettle? Do yourself a favour and put a ball valve tap in your esky and make a false bottom of some sort.

You're right mate however thats a bit beyond my skill level + when I go AG shortly I'll need the bigger equipment anyway. So dont want to stuff the esky as I'll probably use it for picnics afterwoulds!

 

[DrewCarey82]

I think that the big question is fellas would a 90 min mash have any adverse affects to your brew?

If it doesnt then thats what I'll do.

 

[Stuster]

As far as I know Sam. Ph and temp are both important. How soluble tannins are depends on both. If you are fly sparging, the pH starts to rise towards the end of the sparge. So this is why you need to fly sparge under 78C and stop your runnings when they drop below 1010 or so. (Where are you when we need you TroughLolly? )

With a decoction, you boil part of the mash but tannin extraction is not an issue with this method. So go for it. Handling boiling water can be a pain as DC points out, so I've been using water of 90C or so. Seems to work. Can't taste any astringency. (Though I love tea you can stand the spoon up in so don't take my word for this. )

 

[Ash in Perth]

If thats the case i will stop mahing out with regular beers.

I do a 90min mash, then mash out then fly sparge with 75-80 DegC water.

In the new system ill probably mash for 75-90min and then batch sparge with enough hot water to bring it up to mashout temp, then let this drain.

 

[BeerMat]

I mash until conversion is complete. This can be as quick as 20 minutes and has taken as long as 2.5 hours, depending on the grain mix (the 2.5 hour mash had a large amount of wheat and other grains with did not have enough enzymes to convert themselves). I confirm the mash is complete by doing an starch (iodine) test.

My impression is that people who mash for a set time, eg. 60 or 90 minutes, are not doing a starch test and are just assuming the mash is complete after a "safe" time. My own experience has shown the time taken for the mash to complete varies considerably based on the grain mix, how the grain is cracked, the water to grain ratio, etc. - 90 minutes may be far too long or not long enough.

Maybe I'm missing something. Perhaps people who mash for a fixed amount of time could tell me if they do a starch test and if so, why do they continue mashing after all the starch has been converted to sugar/dextrins? The brew day is long enough without adding an extra hour for no reason.