60min Or 90min Mashes?

[peas_and_corn]

Starch test?? never do it.

I just throw the water into the container with the grain and let it sit. There's a point where I just don't care about technicalities. 90 mins gets the job done (with the grain profiles I use, it's more than enough); and I don't mind standing around- either I watch DVDs (if I do it alone) or sit and chat (with whoever I managed to rope into brewing with me). Or I rack other brews and do other miscellaneous jobs.

 

[Steve]

I think as Im just starting down the path of mashing i'll be sticking to the "safe" time of 60 mins and have a couple more longnecks whilst im waiting. I was just curious thats all. Interesting answers.
Cheers all
Steve

 

[Justin]

I rarely do a starch test these days. I mash for 60mins, but depending on what else is happening and how much of a rush I'm in it could be as little as 45mins. I tend to do starch tests when I'm instructing or demonstrating to someone else.

60mins mashes allow enough time to get your sparge water to temp, sanitise fermenters, pack up the mill and grains and scales etc and weigh out your hops. That 60mins is put to good use and fits in well with the brew day. However I don't like to make it longer than it needs be.

Cheers, Justin

 

[Steve]

I rarely do a starch test these days. I mash for 60mins, but depending on what else is happening and how much of a rush I'm in it could be as little as 45mins. I tend to do starch tests when I'm instructing or demonstrating to someone else.

60mins mashes allow enough time to get your sparge water to temp, sanitise fermenters, pack up the mill and grains and scales etc and weigh out your hops. That 60mins is put to good use and fits in well with the brew day. However I don't like to make it longer than it needs be.

Cheers, Justin

go on then....dare I ask how to do a starch test with iodophor?

 

[Stuster]

My impression is that people who mash for a set time, eg. 60 or 90 minutes, are not doing a starch test and are just assuming the mash is complete after a "safe" time.

Guilty as charged, officer. I'll reform my ways and do a starch test with my next brew tomorrow. I'll be using Golden Promise (trying to clone Timothy Taylor's Landlord ) so it'll be interesting to see how long conversion takes with this malt.

 

[Justin]

go on then....dare I ask how to do a starch test with iodophor?

Simple. Collect a bit of the liquor out of your MT with a spoon and place it on something white (I have a little white saucer). Try not to get chunky grain pieces. You only want a ml or two of wort.

Add a drop of iodophor to the wort sample. If it goes black there is starch present, if it just goes iodine brown then conversion is done.

Having chunks of grain in the same can tend to give false positives.

Try it at the start of the mash and then at the end and you should spot the difference.


Edit: Oh, don't put the sample back in the mash.

 

[Steve]

go on then....dare I ask how to do a starch test with iodophor?

Simple. Collect a bit of the liquor out of your MT with a spoon and place it on something white (I have a little white saucer). Try not to get chunky grain pieces. You only want a ml or two of wort.

Add a drop of iodophor to the wort sample. If it goes black there is starch present, if it just goes iodine brown then conversion is done.

Having chunks of grain in the same can tend to give false positives.

Try it at the start of the mash and then at the end and you should spot the difference.


Edit: Oh, don't put the sample back in the mash.

Thanks Justin - might just give that a try. Black or brown thoughs a bit boring - it could at least go flouro green or something interesting
Cheers
Steve

 

[BeerMat]

My impression is that people who mash for a set time, eg. 60 or 90 minutes, are not doing a starch test and are just assuming the mash is complete after a "safe" time.

Guilty as charged, officer. I'll reform my ways and do a starch test with my next brew tomorrow. I'll be using Golden Promise (trying to clone Timothy Taylor's Landlord ) so it'll be interesting to see how long conversion takes with this malt.

Another troubled youth put back on the straight and narrow. My work here is done.

BTW, if you want to try a starch test without going to all the trouble of doing a mash, dissolve a small amount of cornflour in some water, add a drop of iodine and it will turn black.

 

[neonmeate]

BTW, if you want to try a starch test without going to all the trouble of doing a mash, dissolve a small amount of cornflour in some water, add a drop of iodine and it will turn black.

aha, that way you don't need to bother starchtesting the mash!

 

[Steve]

Completely off topic - but Stuster please could you post your recipe (here or in the recipe section) to the TTL with GP - as that is on my list in the very near future. I have 8.3kg of GP on order.
Cheers
Steve

 

[user 384]

Conversion of starch to sugar is only one part of a mashes function, the other function is producing a wort that matches your desired fermentability.

Yes you can test for conversion and find that all the starches have converted to sugar, but this does not mean they have been convereted to the types of sugars you want. Stopping the mash too soon, might leave you with too many unfermentable sugars, as alpha amylase rapidly dextrinises the starch molecules. You might want to allow extra time for beta amylase to covert more of these dextrins to maltose which is fermentable.

It's also important to remember that both alpha and beta amylase are self-limiting, in that they are denatured by a range of factors and they will not go on working indefinitely, so there is a practical limit to how long you should leave a mash. No point leaving it longer if there are no enzymes left to do any work.

So basically, it's not just a matter of leaving it for X minutes or stopping when conversion has been attained. It's about stopping when the right wort has been produced.

Cheers
MAH

 

[BeerMat]

MAH

I agree with what you said but I don't think the majority of people have selected their mash time for that reason.

Choosing the right mashing temperature would be a more reliable way of obtaining the desired fermentability of the wort - ie. mash at a lower temp for a more fermentable wort; higher temp for more dextrins and mash out / sparge as soon as it's done. There's no way of knowing how much of the complex sugars and dextrins have been converted by the beta amylase if you just leave it for a while. That method seems a bit hit and miss...

 

[Justin]

Yeah, that too.

Valid point from MAH. Play with what works, go with either a 60min or 90min-whichever your happy with.

Cheers, Justin

 

[user 384]

Choosing the right mashing temperature would be a more reliable way of obtaining the desired fermentability of the wort - ie. mash at a lower temp for a more fermentable wort; higher temp for more dextrins and mash out / sparge as soon as it's done.

Yep if you want a highly dextrinous wort, mash high, thick and fast, but if you want a balance between fermentability and mouthfeel, say mashing at 66c or a highly fermentable wort, say mashing at 64c, it's no use stopping as soon as conversion has been completed. Conversion might take only 20mins, but you are likely to have a too dextrinous wort, even if mashed low. Alpha amylase still works at these low temperatures and you need the extra time for the beta amylase to do it's job and make maltose out of some of the alpha limit dextrins.

I'm not suggesting that people use time as the primary factor for wort fermentability, as clearly the big factor is temperature. However you do need to keep in mind that conversion, although the primary goal, is not the final goal, so don't stop just because you have conversio, consider all the relevant factors.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Steve]

Choosing the right mashing temperature would be a more reliable way of obtaining the desired fermentability of the wort - ie. mash at a lower temp for a more fermentable wort; higher temp for more dextrins and mash out / sparge as soon as it's done.

Yep if you want a highly dextrinous wort, mash high, thich and fast, but if you want a balance between fermentability and mouthfeel, say mashing at 66c or a highly fermentable wort, say mashing at 64c, it's no use stopping as soon as conversion has been completed. Conversion might take only 20mins, but you are likely to have a too dextrinous wort, even if mashed low. Alpha amylase still works at these low temperatures and you need the extra time for the beta amylase to do it's job and make maltose out of some of the alpha limit dextrins.

I'm not suggesting that people use time as the primary factor for wort fermentability, as clearly the big factor is temperature. However you do need to keep in mind that conversion, although the primary goal, is not the final goal, so don't stop just because you have conversio, consider all the relevant factors.

Cheers
MAH

Making beer isnt just an art, its a science too. Fascinating!
Cheers
Steve

P.S. I think I just made my self a signature line :lol:

 

[Stuster]

I checked my mash today, Golden Promise malt. Still starch present at 50 minutes. Conversion at 80 minutes. I didn't get to check in between those times unfortunately, but I think longer than 20 minutes with this malt might be a good idea.