Yeast Starters

[Karhunkynsi]

G'day.

So I'm looking into doing all grain brewing, doing all the research etc. but I'm getting a bit confused by this "Yeast starter" culturing.

Effectively, it looks to me like they're making a liquid yeast, by adding dried yeast. What's the point?

I was under the impression the plan was to take a bit of brew from the barrel and re-culture it into a yeast that could be used in the next batch, but I can't seem to find any instructions on this.

Any help would be appreciated, bonus points if it's in youtube form, because it seems that a lot of the books focus more on sounding like experts at mathematical equations and brew lingo than in actually telling you HOW it's done.

Cheers.

 

[pimpsqueak]

G'day.

So I'm looking into doing all grain brewing, doing all the research etc. but I'm getting a bit confused by this "Yeast starter" culturing.

Effectively, it looks to me like they're making a liquid yeast, by adding dried yeast. What's the point?

I was under the impression the plan was to take a bit of brew from the barrel and re-culture it into a yeast that could be used in the next batch, but I can't seem to find any instructions on this.

Any help would be appreciated, bonus points if it's in youtube form, because it seems that a lot of the books focus more on sounding like experts at mathematical equations and brew lingo than in actually telling you HOW it's done.

Cheers.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=54900
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=61076

Try these...

 

[rehab]

http://billybrew.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter

 

[glenwal]

A starter is (basically) a way to increase the number of yeast cells before you pitch the yeast into the wort. There is an optimum amount of yeast that should be pitched (there are calculators for this as it depends on a few factors). To few yeast, and it stresses the yeast (too much is also a problem, though unless you make a 10L starter its not nearly as much of a problem)

The main reason for making a starter is so you don't have to buy the yeast (there are other reasons - sticking basic here). Typically 2 packets of dried yeast gives you about the right amount, so if you only have 1 pack (or only want to buy 1) then you can make a starter to increase the numbers.

Liquid yeast contains far fewer viable cells than dried yeast (and even less again if the pack is a little old), and costs quite a bit more (you pay for quality) so unless you want to fork out for 2-3 packs (or more) of liquid yeast, you make a starter.


Search is your friend (use the google search, not the site one)

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww....amp;x=0&y=0

same goes for youtube

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...0.0.yGmXk9LwetU

 

[Karhunkynsi]

Thanks folks!

All grain brewing does not have to involve liquid yeasts or yeast starters.
Just as kit or kit-and-kilo brewing does not have to involve dry-yeast-sachets.

I don't think I can make my 'Yeast Starter' instructions (you posted in that thread yesterday so I have to presume you actually read it), if you don't understand it (there was no maths in it that you can't do with your fingers) then skip it. Either use dry yeast, or simply buy and use however many packs of liquid yeast you need for your recipe.

Yes I did read it, but you have to realise I am NEW at this. Sadly, this appears to be the same as every other forum where newbies are treated with scorn for the simple fact of BEING newbies. How dare I ask a question in the "newbie questions" thread!

Much like anything, people who have been doing these things forever and a day seem to forget that newbies aren't up to your lingo, technical terms, and other people work better off visual stimuli than what they can get out of text. For somebody who's just learning the concept of simple things like "sparging" and "wort", you know, it's going to take a while. There's no need to be nasty about it. The idea of being a beginner is to ask the questions to LEARN these methods because we're AWARE we don't know them. We don't need to be reminded after every post in a harsh manner exactly how new we are.


I'd already mentioned that I'd been doing my research and still couldn't figure it out, but apparently that means I haven't spent enough wasted time on google and youtube without being able to understand it.

Maybe I should have gone back and wasted MORE time rather than just asking for a simple answer from somebody who can answer a direct question rather than having to sift through all the other crap.

I will in future be absolutely SURE not to ask beginner questions in this beginner forums. It appears I've COMPLETELY mistaken the intent of it's purpose.

 

[DJR]

Starters aren't a massive requirement, however there is a few reasons people use them.

- pitching cold needs more cells than a pack of liquid or dry yeast has as yeast will not.grow as well at colder temps
- lagers need more cells as well, they are pitched cold and lager yeast grow differently
- splitting liquid yeast up to.save money means you need a.starter as you are not at a pitchable quantity until you do
- big beers also need a starter as more cells are required than normal-etc

for a good source of info check out the yeastcalc.com site

that being said plenty of AG brewers use dry yeasts, me being one of.them, usually US05 or Nottingham

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Thanks folks!



Yes I did read it, but you have to realise I am NEW at this. Sadly, this appears to be the same as every other forum where newbies are treated with scorn for the simple fact of BEING newbies. How dare I ask a question in the "newbie questions" thread!

Much like anything, people who have been doing these things forever and a day seem to forget that newbies aren't up to your lingo, technical terms, and other people work better off visual stimuli than what they can get out of text. For somebody who's just learning the concept of simple things like "sparging" and "wort", you know, it's going to take a while. There's no need to be nasty about it. The idea of being a beginner is to ask the questions to LEARN these methods because we're AWARE we don't know them. We don't need to be reminded after every post in a harsh manner exactly how new we are.


I'd already mentioned that I'd been doing my research and still couldn't figure it out, but apparently that means I haven't spent enough wasted time on google and youtube without being able to understand it.

Maybe I should have gone back and wasted MORE time rather than just asking for a simple answer from somebody who can answer a direct question rather than having to sift through all the other crap.

I will in future be absolutely SURE not to ask beginner questions in this beginner forums. It appears I've COMPLETELY mistaken the intent of it's purpose.

Dude that thread Wolfy did is perfectly clear and very easy to understand. If you cant understand anything to do with liquid yeast and culturing then just buy the dry ****.
I asked lot's of questions on here when i first started and got heaps of great info and answers but at the end of the day I bought brewing books, brewed beer and made starters to really start learning. The books for me filled in a lot of the gaps. So although we all started out NEW at this everyone knows how to read and learn dont they?
I guess people just get tired of other people wanting them to do all the work. Here is a straight answer for your question though. Buy wyeast packet. poor into wort (water and maltose-sugar) leave for 2 weeks. Thats a 20L starter to easy.

 

[jakethesnake559]

Maybe I should have gone back and wasted MORE time rather than just asking for a simple answer from somebody who can an
I will in future be absolutely SURE not to ask beginner questions in this beginner forums. It appears I've COMPLETELY mistaken the intent of it's purpose.

Hi Karhunkynsi,

C'mon mate, chill out :icon_cheers: !!
Wolfy's post is one of the best guides I've seen on the net if you like pictorial guides.
I think people like to point you to other links rather than re-typing stuff...but generally everyone on here is trying to help.

Re. liquid yeast, you can buy the Wyeast smack packs (about $11).
If you are doing a 23L batch, you will find that one pack is sufficient to ferment normal gravity ales fine without a starter.
Just smack it in the morning when you plan to brew and by the time you are done boiling/cooling, it's ready to pitch.

You will read that you need about 200 billion yeast cells for a normal gravity 20L batch.
The Wyeast smack pack has 100 billion yeast cells (and it's worked fine for me pitched straight into ales without a starter).
Your dry yeast sachet [eg.US-05] has about 6 billion yeast cells per gram (so about 70 billion yeast cells - and works fine).

So I guess a lot of brewers want to increase the cell count without spending a fortune on yeast.
To increase the amount of yeast cells, you can make a starter (basically just a mini-wort that you allow to start fermenting).

Making a starter is worthwhile if you want to increase your yeast count for bigger beers or lagers.
And a bunch of other reasons....

But if you want to have a crack at liquid yeast, I recommend just using the Wyeast smack packs until you get a handle on it.
Rinsing and re-using the yeast cake is a great way to keep the cost down if your sanitising is good and you are brewing often.

Good luck!!
Cheers,
Jake.

 

[glenwal]

$11 <snip> 23L <snip> 200 billion <snip> 20L <snip> 100 <snip> 05 <snip> 6 billion <snip> per
gram <snip> 70 billion yeast

Dude, there's way to much maths in your post

 

[Wolfy]

Yes I did read it, but you have to realise I am NEW at this. Sadly, this appears to be the same as every other forum where newbies are treated with scorn for the simple fact of BEING newbies. How dare I ask a question in the "newbie questions" thread!

Many people make great beer without using liquid yeast, many people (especially in the USA) make great beer without making a stater - there is nothing about being a newbie to suggest that you should start with simple things and not over-complicate everything. Until you understand the concepts use dry yeast or buy the suggested number of liquid yeast packets. Once you have your brewing procedures under control, understand what "sparging" and "wort" are (John Palmers "How to Brew" book is a great start btw) then move on to more advanced things like liquid yeast and starters.

 

[Karhunkynsi]

Dude that thread Wolfy did is perfectly clear and very easy to understand. If you cant understand anything to do with liquid yeast and culturing then just buy the dry ****.
I asked lot's of questions on here when i first started and got heaps of great info and answers but at the end of the day I bought brewing books, brewed beer and made starters to really start learning. The books for me filled in a lot of the gaps. So although we all started out NEW at this everyone knows how to read and learn dont they?
I guess people just get tired of other people wanting them to do all the work. Here is a straight answer for your question though. Buy wyeast packet. poor into wort (water and maltose-sugar) leave for 2 weeks. Thats a 20L starter to easy.

*Sigh*

Yes. Minus certain terms like "pitch" which may seem commonplace to blokes like you, not to us newbies, and that's going from one of the simplest things.

I guess the most frustrating part here, is I've asked what the POINT is of making a yeast starter, and everybody's gone "HERE'S THE RECIPE YOU IDIOT!!!". Effectively my question has gone unanswered in fabour of newbie bashing.

I also asked how to re-make yeast by re-using some of the beer from your brew keg.

Once again "HERE'S THE RECIPE YOU IDIOT!!!" (reference back to yeast starter, once again NOTHING even close to the question asked). Question goes unanswered, accusation of not enough research, newbie bashing.

If I'd have found the answer through my research, why do you think I would have asked?

Furthermore, what's the point of having a newbie question forum if people are just going to abuse you and tell you to look elsewhere?

Dude, there's way to much maths in your post

Well yeah, there is.

That whole answer could have been compressed down to this:

So I guess a lot of brewers want to increase the cell count without spending a fortune on yeast.
To increase the amount of yeast cells, you can make a starter (basically just a mini-wort that you allow to start fermenting).

Thanks though Jake. Good to know somebody out there's a decent bloke.

 

[kymba]

as previously suggested - the first 4 results from doctor google (http://www.google.com.au/search?q=why+yeast+starter ) reveals information such as:-

from beersmith.com:
The quality of your homebrew can be dramatically improved by making a yeast starter. Home brewers often toss a packet or vial of yeast into their beer without much thought to the quantity needed. Though modern liquid brewers yeast smack packs and vials are a huge improvement over older dry yeast packs, these packages do not contain enough yeast cells for optimal pitching. Underpitching results in slower startup, higher risk of infection, off flavors and sometimes incomplete fermentation.

from absolutehomebrew.com.au:
Making a yeast starter is the foundation technique for working with yeast. Use this technique to re-culture yeasts from bottled beers. The necessary equipment is quite simple: a suitable bottle (preferably PET) with a bung and airlock to suit, a funnel, and a handsprayer for your sanitising solution.

from hbd.org:
The quantity of yeast in a Wyeast "smack pack" typically isn't anywhere near enough to give you a fast, healthy fermentation. That's why it is a good idea to make a starter. The idea behind making a yeast starter is to provide the small number of yeast cells from a Wyeast package with an ideal environment in which they can build up their health and numbers, with no competition from other competing microbes. Then, when the contents of the starter are pitched into your wort, you will get a shorter lag time, and a faster fermentation. This in turn will result in a cleaner tasting beer, and reduce the chances of infection, because your yeast will take over quickly, leaving little time for unwanted microbes to gain a foothold.

and lastly, from howtobrew.com:
Preparing Liquid Yeast
Liquid yeast is generally perceived as being superior to dry yeast because of the greater variety of yeast strains available. Liquid yeast allows for greater tailoring of the beer to a particular style. However, the amount of yeast in a liquid packet is much less than the amount in the dry. Liquid yeast usually must be pitched to a starter wort before pitching to the main wort in the fermenter. Using a starter gives yeast a head start and increases the population preventing weak fermentations due to under-pitching.

i call ******** that you googled anything - oh, and it even lists some yt videos in the results

 

[glenwal]

Yes. Minus certain terms like "pitch" which may seem commonplace to blokes like you, not to us newbies, and that's going from one of the simplest things.

If you don't know the meaning, try googling it. How are we supposed to know what words you do and do not know? Do you know what brewing is? what fermenting is? what wort is? How about flask? or clean? or sanitised? or kitten?


I just tried googling "pitch yeast", and the very first result (without even opening the link)

Pitching the Yeast - HomeBrewTalk Wiki

www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Pitching_the_YeastCached - Similar

14 Dec 2008 Fermentation begins with the pitching of the yeast. "Pitching" is simply a brewer's term meaning to add the yeast to the fermenter. Before ...

I guess the most frustrating part here, is I've asked what the POINT is of making a yeast starter,
and everybody's gone "HERE'S THE RECIPE YOU IDIOT!!!".

The frustrating part is how obvious it is that you aren't willing to put in any effort to finding the answers and you want everything spoon fed to you. If you can't be bothered to search for things your self (as pointed out above (in kymba's post and in the top of this post), the 1st page on goolge answers all of your questions. So what research is it you have supposedly done?

Furthermore, what's the point of having a newbie question forum if people are just going to abuse you and tell you to look elsewhere?

This isn't a newbie question forum. This is the "Beginners Partial/AG" forum - with the description of "Making the move from Kits to AG".

I'd suggest you stick to the forum with the description "Post in this section if you are a new brewer ", and not try to swim out of your depth before someone decides to "drop everything they're doing, come over to your house, and choke a kitten in front of you as an object lesson"

 

[rehab]

Two posts down (from your first post) I put a link for you complete with a video of someone actually doing the yeast starter. Is that not what you were after?

PS I dont think people are really having go they just may be feeling they have given the answers and you haven't said what specifically doesn't make sense.

If it's the why then usually to do with the fact the brewer is making a high gravity beer and wants a healthy amount of yeast or other common needs for this are the yeast could be older and they want to make sure there are enough healthy cells to drop to the gravity needed to bottle.
There is also the need for starters when making lagers and pilsners. But it can just be easy enough to pitch one or two packs of dry yeast.

I have had my first crack at liquid yeast and its stopped fermenting completely and no amount of rousing at a nice temp has woken it back up so I know I should focus more in the future on maybe making a starter and that link I posted and Wolfys post on here have helped me understand how to make it easy on myself.

For now though I have just pitched some 05 to try and drop it down to an acceptable bottling gravity. Fingers crossed.

 

[DJR]

Effectively my question has gone unanswered in fabour of newbie bashing.

OK, so I tried to help and didn't engage in "newbie bashing", sorry won't do it again...

Starters aren't a massive requirement, however there is a few reasons people use them.

- pitching cold needs more cells than a pack of liquid or dry yeast has as yeast will not.grow as well at colder temps
- lagers need more cells as well, they are pitched cold and lager yeast grow differently
- splitting liquid yeast up to.save money means you need a.starter as you are not at a pitchable quantity until you do
- big beers also need a starter as more cells are required than normal-etc

 

[JaseH]

G'day.

So I'm looking into doing all grain brewing, doing all the research etc. but I'm getting a bit confused by this "Yeast starter" culturing.

Effectively, it looks to me like they're making a liquid yeast, by adding dried yeast. What's the point?

You generally start with yeast already in liquid form when making a starter. A starter is a way of increasing the amount of yeast you have before you 'pitch'(ie. throw it into your fermenter) with the wort. Normally you dont need to make a starter if you are using dry yeast as there is either already enough in one pack of dry yeast, or its easier/cheaper to throw in 2 packs to increase numbers.

I was under the impression the plan was to take a bit of brew from the barrel and re-culture it into a yeast that could be used in the next batch, but I can't seem to find any instructions on this.

You can save some of the left over yeast slurry from your fermenter after a fermenting a batch, this is not making a starter though. If you have a very small amount of saved yeast slurry from a previous batch then you can make a starter to increase the amount of yeast again.

Any help would be appreciated, bonus points if it's in youtube form, because it seems that a lot of the books focus more on sounding like experts at mathematical equations and brew lingo than in actually telling you HOW it's done.

Cheers.

Mate, there is a learning curve to all this and it takes time. Its sounds to me like your trying to jump in too high up the curve! There is enough to learn with AG without having to worry about making starters as well. I'd forget the yeast starter thing to begin with and stick with pitching dry yeast packets until you are comfortable with the other brewing specifics and then look at trying it out.

 

[Dave70]

Here's what I do.

100g of dry malt extract in 1L of water, boil it, cool it, pour it into my sanitised demijohn and ad the yeast I'll be using for the brew.
Let it do its thing for a day or so, then pour it into the fermrnter and add the wort.
Dry, liquid or a stubbie's worth of re-claimed slurry from the bottom of the fermenter, they all get the same treatment.
I do this every time for two simple reasons. Basically with the volume of beer I can produce at one hit, I'll never underpitch, two, and most importantly, I know the yeast is good to go. That would be the 'point' bit as far as I'm concerned.
Now stop splitting hairs, *sighing* and brew some ******* beer already.

 

[Wolfy]

*Sigh*

Yes. Minus certain terms like "pitch" which may seem commonplace to blokes like you, not to us newbies, and that's going from one of the simplest things.

I guess the most frustrating part here, is I've asked what the POINT is of making a yeast starter, and everybody's gone "HERE'S THE RECIPE YOU IDIOT!!!". Effectively my question has gone unanswered in fabour of newbie bashing.

I also asked how to re-make yeast by re-using some of the beer from your brew keg.

Once again "HERE'S THE RECIPE YOU IDIOT!!!" (reference back to yeast starter, once again NOTHING even close to the question asked). Question goes unanswered, accusation of not enough research, newbie bashing.

If I'd have found the answer through my research, why do you think I would have asked?

Furthermore, what's the point of having a newbie question forum if people are just going to abuse you and tell you to look elsewhere?

You actually did not ask that, your original question and follow-ups are much more convoluted - which is why myself and others are so confused as to what you want.
What you are asking is answered in even the most basic brewing texts, either online, in real-book or ebook format, I seriously suggest you read one. Your question is one of those things that is so obvious to most anyone who knows even a little bit about fermenting would take it for granted that everyone knows the answer - kind-of-like driving your car on the correct side of the road, everyone takes that for granted (even if they do it differently in different parts of the world).

The "How to Brew" book (which I suggested earlier), is a great starting point for anyone looking to get into home-brewing and is avaible free on the internet:
http://www.howtobrew.com/
I don't think strongly suggesting you go read it is calling you an idiot, or suggesting anything bad - however it does contain much of the basic knowledge that you are asking for others to spoon-feed you - a little research and reading on your part would go a long way, and at least allow you to ask future questions in ways that other people understand your intent.

Now that you have asked your question more clearly, let me try and answer it for you:

When adding yeast (pitching) to your malt-sugar solution (wort) you need to add the 'correct' quantity of live (viable) yeast cells, so they can do their job successfully (ferment sugars into alcohol and create other byproducts). The 'correct' amount of yeast depends on the volume (how much you have), gravity (how much sugar you have, ie: how strong it is) and type of beer you are making (eg: English Ale, American Ale, Lager, Wheat or Alt Beer) (please read How to Brew).
However, manufacturers do supply home-brewers with a custom made packet of yeast in the 'correct' quantity for each individual beer they make.
So home brewers need to either buy and pitch more than one packet of yeast (either dry or liquid form) and use those OR they need to grow their own yeast so that they can get the 'correct' amount of yeast to make their beer.
Growing yeast is called "making a starter", you might also "make a starter" to improve the health (vitality) of the yeast, "making a starter" is most important when using liquid forms of yeast, which is an advanced topic that most new-brewers do not need to worry about for some time, because using dry yeast and/or buy the required number of packets of liquid yeast is easier and simpler.

 

[manticle]

Karhunkynsi - I mean this in a nice way but please brush the chip off your shoulder (and please stop typing in red).

Everyone else - ease up a bit. S/he has a point, even if the defensiveness is a little over the top. People are supposed to be able to ask questions here. I sure learnt a hell of a lot and quite quickly because other people (Butters, Screwtop and numerous others) were kind enough to help me out with some of my earlier dumb/strange questions.

Yes I read a lot, brew a lot and **** up a lot but enthusiasm for the craft should be welcomed, not castigated.

Karhunkynsi (again) - the answers are there (both in this thread and in wolfy's very useful guides). I understand it's not always immediately obvious when you're new to it. In my experience, reading things a few times until you kind of get it, then trying it out, then re-reading and associating reading with results helps your brewing learning the most. Have a crack - the worst that can happen is you buy some more yeast. Reasons and terminology have been outlined so I have no need to add to that but I'm usually happy to answer questions if I feel I know the answer well enough. If I don't, I'll say so.

 

[Karhunkynsi]

Karhunkynsi - I mean this in a nice way but please brush the chip off your shoulder (and please stop typing in red).

Everyone else - ease up a bit. S/he has a point, even if the defensiveness is a little over the top. People are supposed to be able to ask questions here. I sure learnt a hell of a lot and quite quickly because other people (Butters, Screwtop and numerous others) were kind enough to help me out with some of my earlier dumb/strange questions.

Yes I read a lot, brew a lot and **** up a lot but enthusiasm for the craft should be welcomed, not castigated.

Karhunkynsi (again) - the answers are there (both in this thread and in wolfy's very useful guides). I understand it's not always immediately obvious when you're new to it. In my experience, reading things a few times until you kind of get it, then trying it out, then re-reading and associating reading with results helps your brewing learning the most. Have a crack - the worst that can happen is you buy some more yeast. Reasons and terminology have been outlined so I have no need to add to that but I'm usually happy to answer questions if I feel I know the answer well enough. If I don't, I'll say so.

Thankyou kindly, but as I keep trying to tell people, I ran through google, books, the instructionals and a few other bits and pieces and still didn't get it, and couldn't find the recipe for re-using part of your beer to make yeast, which is why I asked the question.

It seems that the fact that I researched it until I got frustrated at a lack of answer and dared to ask means I was punished for not continuing to research. And that asking a question means everyone instantly assumes you DIDN'T research.

Would somebody kindly give me a research benchmark so I don't get my head chewed off next time? Because considering how many afternoons I've spent trying to wrap my head around this ****, I thought I might have been justified in asking a simple question.

So as you can imagine the chip is 100% reactive. If people bite, I bite back. If people are nice, I'm nice back. I'm not going to accept unfair treatment just because somebody is a "forum veteran", nor am I going to bite somebody who's being pleasant. Quid pro quo.