Why do ALL of my can kits taste bad?

[Grmblz]

This thread is exactly where im at. A mate of mine has convinced me that he makes good kit beers without the twang etc so I'm making a return to kit brewing. all i got 20 years ago was mostly good old crappy twangy home brew.

What I'm taking from this tread is

1. Water treatment, filtered and boiled
2. Yeast change
3. Sanitation routines
4. Hops
5. Fermenting temperature control


This is in my mind, Additional free amino nitrogen to the wort (how to brew discusses the effects of a deficit in kits and extracts).

Has anyone tried adding free amino nitrogen to their wort? Or kraeusening?

Much appreciate your opinions im not going to give up.

I'll podt with results, once I get into it

Join coopers club
Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)
Order malts etc
Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200
Tip: order "extras" hops, yeast, grain etc before the extracts so all is ready to go.
This results in the freshest possible extract, also look at their recipe of the month for the easiest way to do a brew (comes complete with hops specialty yeast etc but at added cost)

 

[Grmblz]

@westo2014 alternatively https://www.kegland.com.au/ingredients/muntons-beer-kits/hand-crafted-range.html I have done the Belgian and smugglers, both very good, then there is https://www.kegland.com.au/ingredients/recipe-kits/extract-recipe-kits.html Dr Smurto is a can brewing legend

 

[Jocky]

Join coopers club

Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200

Any idea where I'd get one of those?

 

[koshari]

Any idea where I'd get one of those?

Get the frige of gumtree or equiv for 50 odd bucks, grab a pad heater and a controller.

Controller example https://www.kegland.com.au/mkii-10-30amp-temperature-controller-heat-cool.html

 

[Grmblz]

Any idea where I'd get one of those?

As koshari says, fridge off gumtree, get an "all fridge" not fridge freezer, ideally a 350ltr plus to fit a fermzillasaurus conical in the future, plug the heat pad and fridge into the controller and bingo! Flat out at the moment but will pm you with a more sophisticated way to do it (pic's and stuff)

 

[peterlonz]

You don't say where you live but it's Oz then you really need to address promptly the issue of controlled fermentation temperature.
The best but more importantly, the easiest controller is the Inkbird brand, all the tricky wiring is done so it's sort of "plug & play" .
Then just ferment at about 19 C plus or minus maybe 1.5 C.
Obviously you will need a decent size fridge & the best, but much harder to find are "no freezer" fridges.
There is an alternative, which I use, & it's not as good, & involves more monitoring by you. You buy a commercially made jacket for your fermentor. Mine cost about $100 from the local brew shop.
Now you just need a supply of frozen solid water filled plastic bottles. I have standardised on 2 &3 litre types. Don't overfill or the freezing water will burst the plastic. Typically I will put in 2 two litre bottles & monitor the temperature. BTW I hope you are using chilled water to get your wort down to pitch temp quickly.
Now from Ebay there are a variety of digital thermometers with stainless waterproof probes. I use aluminium adhesive tape to secure the probe about half way up on the outside. You need to be careful when handling the empty fermentor & not beak the lead to the probe. Now depending on what you buy these are dirt cheap & more than adequate in accuracy.
If you feel a bit "challenged" by these requirements, don't fret1 ASs more questions on this forum. Also I ecommend watching several YouTube videos posted by Craig who seems to present the material in a clear way.

 

[westo2014]

Thanks mate, just signed up

Join coopers club
Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)
Order malts etc
Make beer TEMPERATURE controlled, fermenting fridge complete, able to heat and cool is under $200
Tip: order "extras" hops, yeast, grain etc before the extracts so all is ready to go.
This results in the freshest possible extract, also look at their recipe of the month for the easiest way to do a brew (comes complete with hops specialty yeast etc but at added cost)

 

[Jocky]

You don't say where you live but it's Oz then you really need to address promptly the issue of controlled fermentation temperature.
The best but more importantly, the easiest controller is the Inkbird brand, all the tricky wiring is done so it's sort of "plug & play" .
Then just ferment at about 19 C plus or minus maybe 1.5 C.
Obviously you will need a decent size fridge & the best, but much harder to find are "no freezer" fridges.
There is an alternative, which I use, & it's not as good, & involves more monitoring by you. You buy a commercially made jacket for your fermentor. Mine cost about $100 from the local brew shop.
Now you just need a supply of frozen solid water filled plastic bottles. I have standardised on 2 &3 litre types. Don't overfill or the freezing water will burst the plastic. Typically I will put in 2 two litre bottles & monitor the temperature. BTW I hope you are using chilled water to get your wort down to pitch temp quickly.
Now from Ebay there are a variety of digital thermometers with stainless waterproof probes. I use aluminium adhesive tape to secure the probe about half way up on the outside. You need to be careful when handling the empty fermentor & not beak the lead to the probe. Now depending on what you buy these are dirt cheap & more than adequate in accuracy.
If you feel a bit "challenged" by these requirements, don't fret1 ASs more questions on this forum. Also I ecommend watching several YouTube videos posted by Craig who seems to present the material in a clear way.

Thanks Peter. Yes, I'm acutely aware of the need for temp control, particularly as I'm in Adelaide. I'm also acutely aware of my lack of free space (rented unit, no garage/shed etc). I actually bought an inkbird last summer (still in its wrapping) before I went on a fridge hunt. I wasted a lot of time/petrol chasing down Gumtree/Facebook ads only to find that the big ones were too big and the small ones were too small for my standard Coopers FV. I'm now thinking along the lines of buying a new, small chest freezer as the external measurements are a fit (just!) for my understairs storage area. Have to pop into Good Guys or somewhere to take the internal measurements though.......

 

[koshari]

chest freezers have a lot of advantages but just beware that they do add a fair manual handling toll, i use one for my kegerator and wouldn’t want to be lifting anything heavier than a keg in and out of them.

i can sympathise your fridge hunting however, whilst mines not perfect iam sticking with my 360 upside down, the negative is a freezer space underneath thats a bit of a waste of energy and space, the positive is that the fridge compartment bottom is the perfect height to fill out of into kegs.

 

[Journeyman]

Join coopers club
Check their recipes and pick 3 or 4 (I like their 2013 and 2017 vintage clones)
Wait till the second week of the month (free shipping)

Where do I find info that 2nd week of month is free shipping? I look everywhere else because of the shipping costs. (low income so limited spend - the postage is extra goods)

 

[Journeyman]

I'm off to eat then do my first bottling. Mine has turned out pleasant to smell, tastes like beer and that's in spite of beginning with a temperature disaster - 1st night woke to a 36° FV.
I haven't read all the thread yet but one comment made me wonder - would it make a difference if the can is first added with either enhancer or LME to hot water before pouring it into the FV?
I did that - can't recall where I saw it, but the early comment sounds like the can was emptied directly into the FV.

 

[koshari]

I'm off to eat then do my first bottling. Mine has turned out pleasant to smell, tastes like beer and that's in spite of beginning with a temperature disaster - 1st night woke to a 36° FV.
I haven't read all the thread yet but one comment made me wonder - would it make a difference if the can is first added with either enhancer or LME to hot water before pouring it into the FV?
I did that - can't recall where I saw it, but the early comment sounds like the can was emptied directly into the FV.

temperature isn't really critical until you pitch the yeast, then its very important.

 

[Journeyman]

temperature isn't really critical until you pitch the yeast, then its very important.

See, I thought that but I was wondering why there is such a divide among kit brewers where some have no issues and some have every kit brew taste bad.
Seemed to me the only thing not talked about was how they set up the initial brew prior to pitching the yeast.
I'm a newbie so I don't know if some use the can into hot water or others just add warm water to the contents they've poured into the FV.
The method I followed was to put the can upside down in hot water on the stove for a few minutes, open the bottom of the can and pour that into a couple of litres very hot water, mix with adds, pour into FV then bring to yeast temp with extra water up to the 23 L.
It occurred to me that maybe that initial high temp might do something to flavours?

 

[Journeyman]

Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
"Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"

So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?

 

[i-a-n]

Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
"Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"

So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?

No need to boil a kit can, just sit it in hot water for a few minutes to make pouring it out easier.
I put mine into the tub of sterilising solution along with all the other kit I'll be using, can opener, stirring spoon, syphon etc etc.
I make more solution than necessary as I use some of it for washing out the fermenter and kegs before getting started on the job.

Once all is clean, open the can, pour into the fermenter, add the fermantables, flush out the can with hot water from the kettle, mix, make up to the required volume, check the temperature and pitch the yeast. Seal her up and away you go.

A fridge something like this (I picked a couple up for about $50 each, take out the shelves and pop in a decent bit of ply and 2 fermenters fit very nicely.) is VERY useful in conjunction with a temp controller (and possibly a heating belt, although keeping the brew cool is the worry here in N Qld.)

Don't be in a hurry, when fermentation stops, I always allow another week in the fermenter before kegging. Just be sure to be splashing plenty of sterilising solution all over the place at every part of the process.
I hope that helps.

 

[Journeyman]

No need to boil a kit can, just sit it in hot water for a few minutes to make pouring it out easier.

You may have misunderstood.
ATM I don't think I have an issue - particularly not a sanitising issue. This is about how there seem to be 2 groups - 1 that has no decent kits beers and 1 that has good beers from kits.
I doubt very much the boiling mentioned in the 'Starter Yeast' quote I gave is related to sterilising as the LME is already in 170° (77°C) water. Not much around the house will live through that.
So it has to be something to do with the sugars and/or malt process.

So my posts were about wondering if maybe the very hot water/boiling of the LME might be the difference between a good taste beer and a bad one.

 

[Grmblz]

Where do I find info that 2nd week of month is free shipping? I look everywhere else because of the shipping costs. (low income so limited spend - the postage is extra goods)

If you have joined their club you should get an email notification, otherwise just check their website. How it works is they release a ROTM (recipe of the month) in fact they release two just click the "recipes" tab at the top of their home page, which are complete kits with extract, hops, grains and yeast. These kits are free postage and at the same time they offer free postage on orders over $80 or $100, I have no idea how they choose the amount it just varies, as does the actual release date although it's usually somewhere between the 10th and 15th of the month. The kits are pretty good value if you are into specialty grains and yeasts/hops, but if you just want can and kilo (please make the kilo DME or LME not sugar) then the free shipping is pretty much a can for free. When the ROTM sells out they revert to $15 flat rate shipping until the next release.

 

[pcmfisher]

You may have misunderstood.
ATM I don't think I have an issue - particularly not a sanitising issue. This is about how there seem to be 2 groups - 1 that has no decent kits beers and 1 that has good beers from kits.
I doubt very much the boiling mentioned in the 'Starter Yeast' quote I gave is related to sterilising as the LME is already in 170° (77°C) water. Not much around the house will live through that.
So it has to be something to do with the sugars and/or malt process.

So my posts were about wondering if maybe the very hot water/boiling of the LME might be the difference between a good taste beer and a bad one.

I think it has a lot to do with personal taste and what one is used to.
I have tried many home brews that the person brewing it says it is the best, only to find it virtually undrinkable.

 

[Journeyman]

I cannot answer as to that, being I am just starting the journey.
But if it IS just taste, wouldn't there be far more disagreement about the various recipes and kits if one's tastes were so divergent to that of others who profess to enjoy the same kind of beer?
We've all come from similar pub lives so the preferred beers should all be within a small section of the spectrum - it seems strange that one person would have such antipathy towards ALL the kits in a chosen range while another, presumably with similar taste spectrum, would find them all OK.

 

[koshari]

Here's the temp thing again - I was reading about yeast starters and there's this...
"Bring your water to 170ºF and add your malt extract - if using LME take the pot or flask off the burner to avoid scorching of your malt. Stir well to dissolve and slowly bring to a boil. Boil for 10
minutes then cool as quickly as possible below 90ºF"

So why are they wanting the extract brought to boiling and if it applies to this, does it also apply to a kit? Not being smartarse, just wanting to learn.
Could it be the reason some people have no problems and some have bad tasting kits?

firstly re- the 10 min boil, this instruction didnt include the addition of hops by any-chance? it sounds like it could be related to bittering. you are correct with regards to sanitising ( or more accurately pasteurising) with the 77deg temp. (fwiw i dont bother pasteurising LME or goop.)

a lot of the ordinary beers produced from kits are based on the old can & kilo recipe and poor temp control as the instructions pretty much state 24 is fine, they are leaning to the conservative side of getting a beginner to drop a batch with less risk of an infection.