Why are you getting infected?

[Greg.L]

I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:

Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.

Don't use an airlock

Try to find a point source when you get an infection (eg dripper tray)

If you sanitise all your equipment properly you won't get infections.

If you get an infection throw out your fermenter

If you get an infection move to a new brew shed

It is ok to make homebrew in an open fermenter

Yeast use oxygen at the start of fermentation so oxygen can't be bad.

All of this is bad advice for homebrewers.
I'm sure there is some other stuff in there (Not including mine) but I'm buggered if I will read back over the thread.

 

[Camo6]

Why do you think its unimportant to pinpoint a source of infection? If you get an infection then as you stated you've made a mistake. Why wouldn't you want to find out where, when and why so you don't make that same mistake again. Making great beer is all about refining your process. I'm not quite there yet but I can taste the difference in every improvement of my process.

 

[mje1980]

Greg you forgot the one about oxygen causing infections

 

[Rocker1986]

I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is?

It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is?

It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.

and not re-hydrating your yeast h34r:

 

[Greg.L]

Why do you think its unimportant to pinpoint a source of infection? If you get an infection then as you stated you've made a mistake. Why wouldn't you want to find out where, when and why so you don't make that same mistake again. Making great beer is all about refining your process. I'm not quite there yet but I can taste the difference in every improvement of my process.

All your equipment should be easily cleanable. Infections can only start when you are at the stage of cooling down wort. From this stage on everything should be easy to clean, and cleaned after each use. Basically you are just talking about your fermenter and taps. You shouldn't go running round the room looking for something to blame. In any case it is impossible to be sure of the origins of an infection, and it doesn't really matter. Keep everything clean, keep out the air. It ain't complicated.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

One tip for those who are having issues with fermenter lids not sealing, smearing the "O" ring with Vaseline should fix it.

 

[Camo6]

But you've obviously got your process sorted and it works. However there would be a lot of new brewers not as learned as thou who may not consider separating their taps or minimising oxidation. Therefore, when looking for solutions, it's important for them to scrutinise their process so they can rectify the problem. It also makes it easier for other brewers to help with diagnosis. Its easy to say you're at fault, not so easy to say what you did wrong.
I fix cars all day and if I know there's a part failing I need to find the cause of the problem. Otherwise the problem will keep returning no matter how well I fix the concern.

 

[Toper]

and not re-hydrating your yeast h34r:

Or a single fruit tree in your backyard :lol:

 

[SimoB]

I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:

Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.

Don't use an airlock

Try to find a point source when you get an infection (eg dripper tray)

If you sanitise all your equipment properly you won't get infections.

If you get an infection throw out your fermenter

If you get an infection move to a new brew shed

It is ok to make homebrew in an open fermenter

Yeast use oxygen at the start of fermentation so oxygen can't be bad.

All of this is bad advice for homebrewers.
I'm sure there is some other stuff in there (Not including mine) but I'm buggered if I will read back over the thread.

I don't believe I gave any advice regarding the drip tray. Just looking for a possible cause. Pin pointing can't be bad thing surely, or classified as 'bad advice'.

I think that is bad advice to be honest. I moved to a new brew rig and this is where i started to run into problems. It was a brewer on this forum that pin pointed that is was the point of cooled wort which helped pin point my infection.

A lot of pin pointing.

 

[verysupple]

Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.

This whole discussion of CO2 and O2 partial pressures is completely irrelevant in the case of glad wrapping. The nasties aren't attached to O2 molecules, they are usually on dust particles and the like. While O2 can certainly get through glad wrap, particles large enough for wild yeast, bacteria etc. to be hitching a ride on are far too large.

The issue of O2 getting through is a whole other argument that I'm sure I've read on AHB a bunch of times before.

 

[Greg.L]

You have missed the point that most infections are aerobic, requiring oxygen. This is the main reason you want to keep air put of your brew. Sure, oxidation is also a potential problem, but if you can keep oxygen out of a good, vigorous ferment the chance of an infection is very low. Use glad wrap and you are letting oxygen in, the chance of an infection rises exponentially. I don't know why it is so hard to get folks to understand that the main cause of infection is oxygen, not poor sanitation. That is why the issue of partial pressures is so important, a blanket of co2 does not keep out o2.

 

[verysupple]

You have missed the point that most infections are aerobic, requiring oxygen. This is the main reason you want to keep air put of your brew. Sure, oxidation is also a potential problem, but if you can keep oxygen out of a good, vigorous ferment the chance of an infection is very low. Use glad wrap and you are letting oxygen in, the chance of an infection rises exponentially. I don't know why it is so hard to get folks to understand that the main cause of infection is oxygen, not poor sanitation. That is why the issue of partial pressures is so important, a blanket of co2 does not keep out o2.

I know what your point was. Yes, most infections require oxygen. I find it very hard to believe that the risk of infection rises "exponentially" using glad wrap. Do you purge 100% of oxygen from the FV before you seal it up? If you don't then there's already more O2 in the FV than will make it through the glad wrap. There will always be O2 in the FV, so saying that oxygen causes infections and poor sanitation doesn't is just naive.

One more thing, if there is so much O2 getting through the glad wrap and into the beer, why don't glad wrapper's beers always turn out oxidised? Oh that's right, the bugs used the oxygen. But wait, glad wrapper's beers more often than not don't turn out oxidised or infected. What happened to all that O2?

 

[Greg.L]

I know what your point was. Yes, most infections require oxygen. I find it very hard to believe that the risk of infection rises "exponentially" using glad wrap. Do you purge 100% of oxygen from the FV before you seal it up? If you don't then there's already more O2 in the FV than will make it through the glad wrap. There will always be O2 in the FV, so saying that oxygen causes infections and poor sanitation doesn't is just naive.

One more thing, if there is so much O2 getting through the glad wrap and into the beer, why don't glad wrapper's beers always turn out oxidised? Oh that's right, the bugs used the oxygen. But wait, glad wrapper's beers more often than not don't turn out oxidised or infected. What happened to all that O2?

A few points.

The wort starts out saturated with oxygen. You pitch a yeast and the yeast rapidly multiply and consume all the oxygen. many volumes of co2 are produced and the headspace of the fermenter is purged of oxygen. Then the fermentation slows down - the yeast will no longer consume all the oxygen and the flow of co2 slows considerably. If the fermenter is not sealed it becomes possible for oxygen to enter and aerobic organisms can establish, because no brew is ever sterile.

What I have been saying in this thread is not my opinion, but well established science over many years.

Brewing is not about absolutes but managing risk. You want to establish procedures that will have the lowest risk of problems. Using gladwrap doesn't guarantee infection, but it raises the risk much higher.

 

[CamM]

<snip>...Using gladwrap doesn't guarantee infection, but in my opinion it raises the risk much higher.

fixed that for you.

 

[Greg.L]

fixed that for you.

So the oxygen permeability of gladwrap is a matter of opinion?

 

[adryargument]

I've got to absolutely agree with JDW81 on this as while yes the topic is causes of infection, putting aside procedure and sanitation methods, it is plain wrong to state that glad wrap poses any greater a risk than a plastic lid (with or without an airlock), all the science and partial pressure theories can attempt to say oxygen is going to get in and mix with the CO2 and make contact with the brew, but empirical evidence suggests this is not the case as suggested by countless brewers who choose to use glad wrap.

Whichever method you are going to use, ensure the lid, thread, o-ring seals and the fermenter itself are adequately sterilised and sanitised so that you find yourself sitting in the extremely unlikely risk category for an infection from oxygen/airborne bacteria.

While you may say that from a "50% of the people dont have a problem with using gladwrap so it cant possibly be true" high horse, there seems to be a an even 50% thinking your being a ******* twat. Not being rude. But your obviously not listening to the other 50% who do have issues or done enough research.

Ever looked at the Mad Fermentationist blog?
He recommends using glass carboys to store lambics as opposed to plastic carboys, because the airsealed lid WILL allow oxygen to permeate.
Now thats over 8-12 months.

Considering that gladwrap is AT MOST 1/20th as thick as plastic carboys. You do the math.

Oxygen does not pose a threat to beer fermentation if it is 100% sterile of oxygen eating bugs - It just might make it taste a bit shitter.

But to those of us that live in a shitty environment, its technically impossible to get 100%. As filling the fermenter alone introduces a few spores. These are suppressed until the yeast stops kicking, and oxygen replaces the CO2.
How do i know this? In my old home, accustomed to 4-5 week infected beers, i simply started adding dextrose.malt syrup to the fermenters while i went on holiday. This ended up giving me a few more days/weeks of CO2 saturation to starve off the bugs. The ones i didnt add this to had space balls growing the size of tennis balls.

 

[bum]

Getting infections vs not getting infections.

Great thread. A+, guys.

 

[Greg.L]

Getting infections vs not getting infections.

Great thread. A+, guys.

Oh god, don't tell me this is going to turn into one of those endless threads where instead of discussing the issue, people complain about the thread.

 

[bum]

Nah. I'm sure it'll continue being one of those endless threads where no-one actually reads what the other side is saying nor thinks about what they are saying and just keeps saying the same shit over and over again.

[EDIT: typo]