Why are you getting infected?

[Greg.L]

If you don't like a thread the solution is easy - avoid it.

 

[manticle]

I decided to list all the bad advice in this thread. Very negative I know, bad karma:

Use Gladwrap to seal your fermenter.

Don't use an airlock

Try to find a point source when you get an infection (eg dripper tray)

If you sanitise all your equipment properly you won't get infections.

If you get an infection throw out your fermenter

If you get an infection move to a new brew shed

It is ok to make homebrew in an open fermenter

Yeast use oxygen at the start of fermentation so oxygen can't be bad.

All of this is bad advice for homebrewers.
I'm sure there is some other stuff in there (Not including mine) but I'm buggered if I will read back over the thread.

Glad wrap works and works well during active fermentation. If you have any intention of conditioning your beer for any length of time post ferment then I agree you should either use a lid or even better - fill a cube or demijohn and keep it as airtight as possible. Lids and airlocks also work. There are pros and cons to both.

Finding or locating the possible point/points of infection (say a dirty tap) is not bad advice.

Infections can take hold in particular pieces of equipment like scratched plastic fermenters or some types of hoses. Ditching those in favour of new ones helps eliminate that source, particularly if you have had a spate of infections which can be very disheartening. Yes you can clean it/sanitise it but the ******* things cost less than a batch of ingredients.

People suggest new environments as a way of eliminating variables for people who have a constant run of them - not one single one. You've obviously never been in that boat or you wouldn't be so dismissive of the idea. If you have a constant run (and people do - many who have never used glad wrap in their lives) you might want to work out if it is the environment or your process and brewing/fermenting elsewhere can help.

I'll leave the open fermentation thing alone. I know some commercials do but what commercials do and what I do at home is very different. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable trying.

Agree with the last - oxygen at beginning of ferment is totally different to too much oxygen present during and after.

I ferment mostly in cubes but I do still occasionally ferment in a plastic barrel with several layers of glad - mostly because my lids are manky after years of disuse and I wouldn't risk them. If lagering or even cold conditioning for more than 3 days I will transfer the finished beer to a cube and tighten the lid.

Glad wrap is not perfect but it is not the demon you make it out to be. Airlocks are not perfect either - one more thing to clean/sanitise, one more trap for noobs to wonder why it isn't glooping or assume that when it stops, the beer is ready. Have to know and use each one correctly and you will probably be fine.

 

[bum]

If you don't like a thread the solution is easy - avoid it.

I gave the thread an A+.

Review your reply to my initial post.

 

[petesbrew]

Well, I've stopped using the garden hose to fill my HLT. I definitely think that has helped.

 

[verysupple]

many volumes of co2 are produced and the headspace of the fermenter is purged of oxygen.

That is so not true. You think that after the bulk of fermentation has happened that there is no O2 in the head space? Remember what you were saying about partial pressures and stuff? Well, that discussion lead me to believe you actually knew about gas dynamics/statistical mechanics. I guess I was wrong.

What I have been saying in this thread is not my opinion, but well established science over many years.

To reappropriate a common saying, 'references, or it didn't happen'.


Now, just to be clear, I do agree that minimising exposure to O2 after fermentation is a good idea, and for many reasons. However, it's the stuff about O2 being the cause of infections that I disagree with. So although it's a little "black and white", I agree with adryargument,

Oxygen does not pose a threat to beer fermentation if it is 100% sterile of oxygen eating bugs - It just might make it taste a bit shitter.

EDIT: typo

 

[Greg.L]

I never said there was no oxygen in the headspace. I have never looked into what amount of o2 might remain after a typical fermentation but you can treat it as zero. In the beer the yeast consume oxygen which is very useful for mopping up some of the o2 that dissolves. This is why spoilage organisms live on the surface - there is o2 in the headspace which is necessary for things like acetobacter and film yeast, but very little in the liquid, though if a lot of o2 gets in it will be more than the yeast can consume and acetobacter can live in the beer.

The notion that you can have a sterile fermentation in normal clean brewery conditions is damaging. No brewery or winery is trying to create a sterile environment - this isn't brain surgery. There will always be some small contamination by bugs but that isn't important if you manage your risks properly. In winemaking, the grapes come in from the vineyard covered in birdshit, bugs, dirt and god-knows-what else. It isn't washed, just crushed and pressed. I know brewing is different but it is still fermenting. It isn't necessary or possible to keep things sterile, just clean.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Having a sterile environment is not the aim otherwise the yeast wouldn't live, a sanitary environment is the aim when making beer which all of us strive for.
Does it matter if some of us prefer plastic wrap or conventional air locks both seem to work, I have never used plastic wrap myself but I am not going to pooh-pooh all of those who do, every one will do what they are comfortable with and any one who is new to brewing will be able to read this thread see the arguments for and against and make up there own minds.
As for cubing beer as far as I am concerned this is a plus in beer making, one doesn't have to drag out heat exchangers and hoses it is all extra work, another plus is if anything goes wrong such as rehydrating your yeast or dropping it, spilling it it doesn't matter if the wort is cubed.Just makes brew day less stressful and a cube is so easy to clean.

Open fermentation is generally used in the north of England because the yeast strain used in the north is not as active and needs constant stirring but it apparently produces more CO2 and makes a nice beer.

 

[verysupple]

Greg.L, I think we're getting closer to the same page here.

Although I disagree with this:

I have never looked into what amount of o2 might remain after a typical fermentation but you can treat it as zero.

When I said I agreed with adryargument although it was a bit "black and white", I meant that minimising the amount of spoilage organisms right from the start has got to at least be as important as not letting in O2 after the bulk of fermentation has happened. So yes, I completely agree with the last half of your post:

The notion that you can have a sterile fermentation in normal clean brewery conditions is damaging. No brewery or winery is trying to create a sterile environment - this isn't brain surgery. There will always be some small contamination by bugs but that isn't important if you manage your risks properly. In winemaking, the grapes come in from the vineyard covered in birdshit, bugs, dirt and god-knows-what else. It isn't washed, just crushed and pressed. I know brewing is different but it is still fermenting. It isn't necessary or possible to keep things sterile, just clean.

In the end, I think we actually agree on the physical and biological principles at work, we just disagree how much of an effect each has. I just don't want noobs to think they can get away with not cleaning and sanitising their FVs properly so long as they don't let any O2 in. Surely you agree with that?

 

[Greg.L]

Of course everything needs to be cleaned. I have said that all along.

 

[Nort]

Hi Guys.
Today I just put down my 20th Brew. Have only been doing it for 4-5 weeks, but have four fermenters. Two "traditional" Copper Tun Kits and two "new style" Cooper Kits. The brews I have been doing are Coopers Lager and Draught, but mainly Tooheys Draught with a couple of Lagers. My first two that came with the Kits were Mangrove Jack Gold. So far I have not had a bad one, and have tasted 11 of them, all being quite nice. But the other day I bought a Coopers Real Ale, put it down in one of the Coopers Kits (I go over board with sanitizing). Have taken SG readings and they are OG 1037 FG 1005 for two days running. Unfortunately it has a smell like green apples. I have read on this Forum about it, but don't fully understand. Is this an infection, or does it need to be left longer? Anyone can supply some advice. Thanks in advance. Cheers

 

[Donske]

Hi Guys.
Today I just put down my 20th Brew. Have only been doing it for 4-5 weeks, but have four fermenters. Two "traditional" Copper Tun Kits and two "new style" Cooper Kits. The brews I have been doing are Coopers Lager and Draught, but mainly Tooheys Draught with a couple of Lagers. My first two that came with the Kits were Mangrove Jack Gold. So far I have not had a bad one, and have tasted 11 of them, all being quite nice. But the other day I bought a Coopers Real Ale, put it down in one of the Coopers Kits (I go over board with sanitizing). Have taken SG readings and they are OG 1037 FG 1005 for two days running. Unfortunately it has a smell like green apples. I have read on this Forum about it, but don't fully understand. Is this an infection, or does it need to be left longer? Anyone can supply some advice. Thanks in advance. Cheers

Mate, that smell is Acetaldehyde, I'm guessing due to not controlling your ferment temps with these hot as hell days lately, the only thing I can suggest is to leave the brew on the yeast for a few weeks to see if it cleans up the green apple but it may be going down the drain.

If you do have temp control it's more than likely due to under pitching your yeast.

 

[Screwtop]

Mate, that smell is Acetaldehyde, I'm guessing due to not controlling your ferment temps with these hot as hell days lately, the only thing I can suggest is to leave the brew on the yeast for a few weeks to see if it cleans up the green apple but it may be going down the drain.

If you do have temp control it's more than likely due to under pitching your yeast.

Or google a reputable source such as Charles Bamforth for info re avoiding the problem.

Screwy

 

[Nort]

Thanks for that Guys. I'll keep an eye on it, and see how it goes. Think I'll stick with the ones I know. Cheers

 

[Adr_0]

I think there are also a lot of people out there abusing the whole "no-chill" concept as they don't understand the theory behind it and wondering why their cubes are expanding.

Isn't that the obvious botulism bacteria kicking in?

 

[nala]

I must agree with Camo there. How are you meant to eliminate or fix the issue causing an infection if you don't bother trying to find out what the cause is?

It's not just air getting in that can cause infections. It could also be dirty taps, improperly cleaned/sanitized fermenters, or anything else that comes in contact with the brew.

I have a simple but effective cleaning and sterilising regime.
I have made up the following components from utilitarian items from either Bunnins or Reject Shop.
The system uses Napisan cleaner 1 Table spoon in 6litres of warm water for cleaning and a Mixture of 10 mls of white vinegar and 10 mls of bleach in 6 litres of water for sterilising obviously not together but as 2 seperate stages.
I attach pictures of what I have built and should be self explanitary.
The cleaning system uses a small fountain pump to which I attached a base...plastic chopping board from Reject shop, the diameter is the diameter of the bucket base, bucket from Bunnings.
The extension tube attached to the pump is a length of electricians plastic conduit into the end of which I placed a nozzle to reduce the diameter of the extension tube so as to get a good forced spray.
The support ring which is used to sit a keg on...plastic chopping board drilled to take support legs... plastic tube from Bunnings
plus straight joiners also from Bunnings.

The pictures are hopefully self explanitary.....







I do not use Bleach and Vinegar to sterilise my kegs I use the Keg & Line steriliser.

 

[Bridges]

I have never had an infection. (touch wood) I read this whole thread looking for tips to tighten up my process. Doesn't seem to be about infections as much as techniques of fermenting. I used to use the lid and airlock on my fermenter but had to ditch them to fit into the bar fridge I use for temp control during ferment. I now use glad wrap exclusively. My beers are better than they have ever been but now I can't say whether its the temp control or the gladwrap. (or all grain vs. Kits and bits) Moral of the story is each to their own. You work within the constraints of your gear and results you are getting dictate changes to your process. I'm not about to slag off ANY home or commercial process that results in good beer.

 

[Pickaxe]

Only infections I've had are bottle born, and from not cleaning my bottles well enough. Has less than 1% in 30+ brews. I've had the same basic sanitizing regime since day one, I clean fermenters immediately, soak with sanitizer after brew and before brew if it's beena while. I soak my bottles overnight, and everything else - mash paddle, chic etc. My plastic brew trestle gets a quick clean with napisan brew day morning.
If in doubt, I sanitise or discard.

I don't like the sound of those micro flora manticle talks about, but yeah, like a commercial kitchen, start stay and end clean, no problems.

 

[Nort]

Well Guys, my problem turned out to be good news. The Green Apple smell I was concerned about eventually dissipated to virtually nothing, so I decided to bottle. Did a couple of Stubbies so I could test them at intervals to see how it was going. We tried one, and to my pleasant surprise (and my Wife's) it tasted really good. Now to leave it to get ready to drink.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers

 

[slcmorro]

I read the title of this, and purely the title only and thought 'Where was this thread back when I was 18'? Woulda saved a lot of trips to the local Health Centre