Why are you getting infected?

[Camo6]

Blaming a drip tray for your bad brews - I think you've seen too many episodes of "House".

I think it's more a case of proving how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be in a home brewing environment.

I pour my drip tray dregs into a glass carboy as I can't stand seeing any alcohol wasted. I call it a "Lush Lambic." :icon_vomit:

 

[Greg.L]

In the old days it was quite common for pubs to redirect their drip trays back to a barrel to be served again as "old". Maybe some pubs still do it.

 

[adryargument]

I think it's more a case of proving how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be in a home brewing environment.

I pour my drip tray dregs into a glass carboy as I can't stand seeing any alcohol wasted. I call it a "Lush Lambic." :icon_vomit:

Not only how prevalent wild yeasts and bacterias can be, but how prevalent they can be in *your* location.
My old place in sydney was in the shade of a big ass rock mountain and received 10% sunlight. The brewery area got 0%.
Mould grew, and bricks turned black withing a few weeks if not cleaned constantly.

I found that once yeast dropped from suspension, acetobacter would pickup around a fortnight later. There was no stopping this. 3 weeks was the longest i could keep beer in a fermenter. However at my new place in brisbane i can pretty much ferment how i wish without the same sideeffects.

Infections in my opinion can simply be a matter of sorroundings - the same reason i had cronic hayfever at my last place and not here in sunny mould free queensland.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Great discussion.

I wonder what some of you think the infection risk associated with a starter is, given that the starter needs to be oxygenated to do its job properly and for me at least, a piece of foil pressed around the opening of the flask is the only barrier. The starter is on a stir plate.

 

[Greg.L]

I found that once yeast dropped from suspension, acetobacter would pickup around a fortnight later. There was no stopping this. 3 weeks was the longest i could keep beer in a fermenter. However at my new place in brisbane i can pretty much ferment how i wish without the same sideeffects.

Infections in my opinion can simply be a matter of sorroundings - the same reason i had cronic hayfever at my last place and not here in sunny mould free queensland.

Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria, if you can keep the air out you won't get it no matter what your environment.

 

[andytork]

I've been infected in lots of places for lots of reasons :blink:

Sorry are we talking about beer here ?

 

[adryargument]

Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria, if you can keep the air out you won't get it no matter what your environment.

Of course! I fully understand this, but using gladwrap as a fermenter cover always permeates oxygen once the CO2 pressure has escaped the same way. The exact same way that the plastic fermenters are made with also allow oxygen through. Which invites the 'subdued' bug to develop.

The only time i never had this was when i had a 100L barrel of Berliner Weisse for 4 months barrel aging. I kegged 40L, then moved 60L to secondary. Same thing 4 weeks later. This includes new fermenters.

Either the increased pressure allowance of the barrel, or the low PH or whatever it may be. It was kept in the worst conditions and survived fully intact. As soon as it was allowed in the natural environment / airways of my place it died. hard.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Sorry but you don't really understand partial pressures. Two different gases, such as co2 and o2 can mix fully without increasing the volume. Because there is no o2 inside the fermenter and lots outside, there is a strong concentration gradient drawing the o2 into the fermenter. It is very counter-intuitive and difficult to appreciate, but a blanket of co2 doesn't stop the o2. Once the oxygen gets in, aerobic spoilage bugs like acetobacter and film yeasts can go to town on the surface of the beer. If you see stuff growing on the surface then that is usually an indication that oxygen is present.

When I first started I was using a lid and an air lock. The amount of times I took a sample or picked up the fermenter and had the old water from the airlock gurgle back down into the beer, quiet a few times.
These days I'm glad wrap or just a lid with oring and no hole for the airlock and its all good.
I have got an infection now though and I know what it was from. I can say 100% it wasn't from using glad wrap. It was from being lazy with yeast into a lager and I had to leave. When I got back a week later there was no action. No infection either. Pitched some dry yeast and the lager finished. 6 weeks down the track I looked under the lid to find a white pelicle on the service. Smelled sour.

So that's how I got my first infection. Pitching yeast from an old batch and not pitching enough in a lager then letting it sit for a week. Lesson learned. Tried cleaning the fermenter with PBW then bleach then filled with boiling water then PBW then starsan. Thought it was all good but no. Next batch fucked. So ill be tipping 80 liters of beer when I get home, throwing out a heap of beer line and a filter and contemplating how ill clean the fermenter again. 60 liter ferm so I'm not getting rid of it.

 

[Greg.L]

No way can you leave beer for 6 weeks under gladwrap, very high chance it will spoil. This thing about airlocks drawing water back into the brew is a non-issue. By this stage the saccharomyces yeast will be going full bore, the beer will have alcohol, co2 and a dominant yeast strain. There is no risk that a little bit of water from your airlock will spoil your beer. People like to imagine they have this semi-sterile situation but it isn't like that, a good ferment will take care of itself. Lots of professionals around the world use airlocks without problems. The air you are letting in is much more harmful than a little bit of water from an airlock. Airlocks are a widely accepted technology over many years, I think you should trust that they are suitable for homebrewers to use.

People shouldn't obsess over a particular point of infection. Homebrewing isn't like medicine, don't imagine you are "House" chasing down the cause of an infection. Just get your process right, use clean equipment and keep the air out, I guarantee you won't have any problems.

 

[mje1980]

These guys are clearly doing it wrong.

I'm going to clarify my comments here. I believe that providing the yeast with pure oxygen at the start of fermentation is beneficial, and is recommended by knowledgable brewers. Even aerating a starter via constant shaking/ agitating is also beneficial.

Adding air/ oxygen once fermentation has been completed is detrimental and can definately cause problems. In context of this thread, I can't ever recall seeing a thread where someone has complained of infection after aerating their beer after fermentation, I doubt anyone would do that.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

No way can you leave beer for 6 weeks under gladwrap, very high chance it will spoil. This thing about airlocks drawing water back into the brew is a non-issue. By this stage the saccharomyces yeast will be going full bore, the beer will have alcohol, co2 and a dominant yeast strain. There is no risk that a little bit of water from your airlock will spoil your beer. People like to imagine they have this semi-sterile situation but it isn't like that, a good ferment will take care of itself. Lots of professionals around the world use airlocks without problems. The air you are letting in is much more harmful than a little bit of water from an airlock. Airlocks are a widely accepted technology over many years, I think you should trust that they are suitable for homebrewers to use.

People shouldn't obsess over a particular point of infection. Homebrewing isn't like medicine, don't imagine you are "House" chasing down the cause of an infection. Just get your process right, use clean equipment and keep the air out, I guarantee you won't have any problems.

I work away at sea so, I leave beer for 5-7 weeks at a time on the yeast and only glad wrap. I never have a problem.
As for keeping air out, check out the 120minute IPA on the homebrewchef.com he adds oxygen with dextrose several times throughout fermentation to get to 21% alcohol (from memory).
I agree keeping air out is the way to go but your just not going to get air in when Co2 is billowing out past the glad wrap. Guys use glad wrap all the time with no problems what so ever including me. It is "keeping the air out".

 

[Tilt]

Quick fix if you're concerned about water in the airlock sucking back into the fermenter - use no rinse sanitiser or vodka instead to keep the greeblies out.

 

[Greg.L]

Man you guys are amazing. Those photos have absolutely nothing to do with homebrew. This is the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy again. Sure you can leave your brew uncovered for the first few days without any problems, but why would you do that? it doesn't make any sense. Put a good lid on it and keep it on. It's very simple and foolproof. Why would you want to do the guessing game of wondering when to cover your beer?

Once fermentation starts to slow down, those vats will be pumped into stainless steel tanks full right to the top, with absolutely no way for air to get in. That is how the professionals do it. SS is much better than plastic but most homebrewers can't afford it, Glass is excellent but for the short fermenting times of homebrew plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed. You will never find a professional who allows air near their beer after the vigorous fermentation has died down. If you do I would seriously question their qualifications and experience.

(here come all the weird examples of brewers who aerate their beer)

 

[JDW81]

plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed.

This seems to be where the problem lies. I have three different fermenters, different sizes and brands and all of them do not seal properly. I have used the all with an airlock and there is no evidence of air/CO2 escaping through the airlock*. I pick them up and there is no suck-back of water. I am a proponent of glad wrap and have been using it for years, with no infection and I can guarantee that glad wrap, held on with the o-ring seals far better than any of my fermenter lids will. If I went and bought a new fermenter every time I found one that didn't seal properly I'd have a garage full of useless fermenters.

I totally agree that oxygen has a big role in infection, as does not pitching sufficient yeast or poor sanitising practices, but suggesting that glad wrap is a dramatic risk to your beer isn't quite accurate, considering most fermenters you buy (well at least I've bought) don't seal properly. Glad wrap may present a theoretical risk, but apparently no chilling your beer gives you a risk of botulism and if you believe the nay-sayers it should be impossible to no-chill any beer which has a fair quantity of pilsner malt in it. There are plenty of home brewers who cover their fermenters with glad wrap and don't have any problems with infection or oxidation and there are just as many who make excellent no-chilled pilsners.

JD.

*Yes I realise that the airlock is not a great guide of fermentation etc, etc, etc, it does however give a good indication of how well sealed your vessel is.

 

[Greg.L]

I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some on this forum and there is so much bad advice recirculated. Homebrewing is a very safe and reliable hobby, that is why it is so popular. Infections are generally unheard of yet of they are often mentioned on this forum. That must mean something. If you have an infection on the surface of your beer it is because of oxygen.

This seems to be where the problem lies. I have three different fermenters, different sizes and brands and all of them do not seal properly. I have used the all with an airlock and there is no evidence of air/CO2 escaping through the airlock*. I pick them up and there is no suck-back of water. I am a proponent of glad wrap and have been using it for years, with no infection and I can guarantee that glad wrap, held on with the o-ring seals far better than any of my fermenter lids will. If I went and bought a new fermenter every time I found one that didn't seal properly I'd have a garage full of useless fermenters.

I totally agree that oxygen has a big role in infection, as does not pitching sufficient yeast or poor sanitising practices, but suggesting that glad wrap is a dramatic risk to your beer isn't quite accurate, considering most fermenters you buy (well at least I've bought) don't seal properly. Glad wrap may present a theoretical risk, but apparently no chilling your beer gives you a risk of botulism and if you believe the nay-sayers it should be impossible to no-chill any beer which has a fair quantity of pilsner malt in it. There are plenty of home brewers who cover their fermenters with glad wrap and don't have any problems with infection or oxidation and there are just as many who make excellent no-chilled pilsners.

JD.

*Yes I realise that the airlock is not a great guide of fermentation etc, etc, etc, it does however give a good indication of how well sealed your vessel is.

Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.

 

[JDW81]

I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some

Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.

Infections have never been a problem for me. I've made hundreds of batches and am still yet to have an infection.

My fermenters all have a rubber o-ring and still don't seal.

I'm also not trying to take to piss, or be antagonistic for the sake of it, I'm simply passing on my observations and experience. I am a proponent of glad wrap, you aren't. I make pretty good beer and I'm sure you do to.

JD

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

I'm starting to think that you guys are taking the piss, probably have been for a while. That's fine, if you post on a forum you have to take what you get. It's a pity that this subject is taken so lightly when infections are an obvious problem for some on this forum and there is so much bad advice recirculated. Homebrewing is a very safe and reliable hobby, that is why it is so popular. Infections are generally unheard of yet of they are often mentioned on this forum. That must mean something. If you have an infection on the surface of your beer it is because of oxygen.



Any fermenter with a rubber o-ring will give you a good seal. Even snap-on lids will seal far better than gladwrap. I see I will never make any headway on the glad wrap thing. Somethings just will be, whatever.

Infections have never been a problem for me. I've made hundreds of batches and am still yet to have an infection.

My fermenters all have a rubber o-ring and still don't seal.

I'm also not trying to take to piss, or be antagonistic for the sake of it, I'm simply passing on my observations and experience. I am a proponent of glad wrap, you aren't. I make pretty good beer and I'm sure you do to.

JD

I've got to absolutely agree with JDW81 on this as while yes the topic is causes of infection, putting aside procedure and sanitation methods, it is plain wrong to state that glad wrap poses any greater a risk than a plastic lid (with or without an airlock), all the science and partial pressure theories can attempt to say oxygen is going to get in and mix with the CO2 and make contact with the brew, but empirical evidence suggests this is not the case as suggested by countless brewers who choose to use glad wrap.

Whichever method you are going to use, ensure the lid, thread, o-ring seals and the fermenter itself are adequately sterilised and sanitised so that you find yourself sitting in the extremely unlikely risk category for an infection from oxygen/airborne bacteria.

 

[mje1980]

Man you guys are amazing. Those photos have absolutely nothing to do with homebrew. This is the "traditional open fermenter" fallacy again. Sure you can leave your brew uncovered for the first few days without any problems, but why would you do that? it doesn't make any sense. Put a good lid on it and keep it on. It's very simple and foolproof. Why would you want to do the guessing game of wondering when to cover your beer?

Once fermentation starts to slow down, those vats will be pumped into stainless steel tanks full right to the top, with absolutely no way for air to get in. That is how the professionals do it. SS is much better than plastic but most homebrewers can't afford it, Glass is excellent but for the short fermenting times of homebrew plastic is fine, so long as it is well sealed. You will never find a professional who allows air near their beer after the vigorous fermentation has died down. If you do I would seriously question their qualifications and experience.

(here come all the weird examples of brewers who aerate their beer)

What is your opinion of people injecting pure oxygen into their wort in the first stages of fermentation??. I have the "yeast" book, by Jamil zainasheff, and Chris white, and there is plenty of good reading about the importance of oxygen in the beginning of fermentation. Should I throw this book out now??

 

[JDW81]

What is your opinion of people injecting pure oxygen into their wort in the first stages of fermentation??. I have the "yeast" book, by Jamil zainasheff, and Chris white, and there is plenty of good reading about the importance of oxygen in the beginning of fermentation. Should I throw this book out now??

I'm pretty sure Greg isn't suggesting O2 at the start of fermentation is the issue, in fact it is of vital importance to the early stages of yeast growth. Late oxygen exposure is the issue here due to the risk it poses for the growth of aerobes at the air-liquid interface.

JD

 

[Rocker1986]

I've never liked the glad wrap method myself, the idea that all that's between my brew and whatever in the outside air is a flimsy piece of plastic doesn't sit well with me. I'd much prefer a solid lid. If something fell onto the gladwrap, and through it, the brew would be fucked. This isn't really a problem in a brewing fridge of course, but I still prefer the lid. It doesn't seal well enough to have any movement either way through the air lock, so nothing gets sucked into it anyway. I have one of those two piece airlocks as opposed to the S bend ones so that may be part of it.


I'm not suggesting there is any more risk of infection from outside nasties with glad wrap however. I did make a brew and used the glad wrap method once, and the beer turned out like shit. Whether this was anything to do with using glad wrap or whether it was just a dud recipe, I'm not sure, but it was pretty well undrinkable until about 5 or 6 months later. That was my experience, obviously a lot of people are using glad wrap with no problems. Just do whatever works for you, if you aren't getting any infections then why worry about it?

I have had one infection in 25 batches. My first proper lager attempt ended up with a mould infection about 3 hours after pitching a yeast starter. The starter was infected and I should have known by the smell but anyway, you live and learn. I fished out this offending mould with a sterilized/sanitized mash paddle, by the next day there was no sign of it and the brew actually turned out well with no problems at all. I guess the yeast killed off any remaining shit during its growth phase.