Where Has My Experiment Gone Wrong?

[Baulko Brewer]

I thought that I would try to experiment with my own recipe that so far looks great but am having trouble with my gravity readings.

To start I used the following recipe:

250 gms Cara Pils
60 grams aromatic grain (both steeped at 65 degrees for 30 mins)
3.5kgs light DME
110gms maltodexrin
60 gms tettnanger for 45 mins
12gms of Tettnanger for 15 mins
Saflager Yeast

I am looking for a high ABV of around 6-6.5%

OG was at 1.065 (I thought it may have been higher 1.070 but close enough)
I was hoping for FG of 1.015-1.020

My problem:
Little to no show of fermentation. At first I though that I might have an air leak through the air lock or O ring, as a nice crusty scum appeared on top, so assumed that fermentation was underway, just not showing through the air lock.

Eight days later I wanted to rack to secondary. I took another reading and it was only 1.060. I have left it in the primary and checked the O ring and air lock and all appear fine.

Where have I gone wrong??

No Glooping through the air lock, but heavy scum on top
Little to no variation in Gravity reading (only 0.005 over 8 days)

I have never made a beer with such high OG before and am unsure if it is only slow (due to high OG) or I have issue with yeast, or it is somehow infected (I am anal about sterilising). I assumed that I had plenty of fermentables in the recipe.

I know that this is a very basic question, but I am perplexed as it has never happened before. (Also, I have never made my own recipe before.)

Any assistance would be great as I do not want to discard it

Thanks

Andrew

 

[RdeVjun]

Ferment temperature?
Sounds more like dud yeast though, I'd repitch with a fresh pack. Pronto.

 

[manticle]

Heavy scum is krausen and a sign that beer is fermenting. Forget the airlock.

Lager yeast is slower and usually requires a larger pitch. High OG beers also need a larger pitch so I would guess you've underpitched. Get another pack or two of the same yeast, get them going with a bit of malt extract and boiled, cooled water and pitch it in.

 

[benno1973]

Questions...

1. What temp did you pitch the yeast at, and what temp did it sit at for 8 days?
2. Have you tasted it? Does it taste ok?
3. Did you rehydrate the yeast, or just pitch it direct? Not that it should matter, but it might give you proof that the yeast were alive...
4. Have you tested your hydrometer in water to make sure it reads 1.000? Doesn't sound like a hydro issue, unless it is waaaaaay out.

To me, it sounds like your yeast we're cactus and didn't do much. Add another yeast and ferment it out, but possibly taste it first to see if it's sour/infected, and then make a judgement call of whether you want to continue with it.

Edit: Manitcle's right - lager yeast can take a lot longer than Ale yeast due to the lower temps, and require a bigger pitch rate. From memory, if you pitch at 19C, you only need 1 sachet, if you pitch at 12C, you need two. Or at least, that's what I remember from the S189 instructions...

 

[mwd]

With a crusty scum on top it looks like it is fermenting. Did you ditch the first bit of your hydro sample as you can get a load of crud which gives a false reading.

As above as RdeVjun has said to follow up.

 

[Baulko Brewer]

Hi Thanks for the responses.

I pitched the yeast at 17 degrees and has stayed fairly constant throughout.( i keep fermenter in my fridge turned off)

I have not yet tasted it, however, it does look right colour/consistancy when taking hydrometer reading.
I pitched the yeast directly into wort.
I will head down to HBS and get another couple of packets of Saflager and see how it goes.

I will re post in a week or so, to let you know results.

PS, Does anybody have comment on beer given the recipe???

Andrew

 

[ben_sa]

being that ive never used saflager, i stick to ales... but isnt 17 a bit high for that yeast? i know i keep mine at 18.c using us05 and nottinggam, and they are ale yeasts. i would have thought 10-14.c would be ideal for a true lager yeast?

But i could be wrong... just my 2c

 

[fcmcg]

Hi Thanks for the responses.

I pitched the yeast at 17 degrees and has stayed fairly constant throughout.( i keep fermenter in my fridge turned off)

I have not yet tasted it, however, it does look right colour/consistancy when taking hydrometer reading.
I pitched the yeast directly into wort.
I will head down to HBS and get another couple of packets of Saflager and see how it goes.

I will re post in a week or so, to let you know results.

PS, Does anybody have comment on beer given the recipe???

Andrew

Bloke,
I'd suggest that your temp is way too high. 17 degrees for a lager yeast that prefers temp around the 9 to 13 mark is probably whats making your yeast sick and unable to work. 8 days is also pretty quick to want to transfer to secondary , IMHO. If it were me making this beer with this yeast , when i initially pitched the yeast , i'd drop its temp to at least 12 degrees and leave it for a good 2 to 3 weeks before i test it . I wouldn't rack either as i find it a pain in the proverbial and there are so many arguments for and against racking that i just don't do it anymore.
The other thing is with lagers , you need alot of yeast , so i would have used 2 packets of dry yeast regardless.....
You also have a high OG , so you would need alot of healthy yeast too....
You may have had plenty of fermentables , but you may have stressed your yeast...yeast health is of the most importance...its the yeast that turns the wort into the good stuff !
Don't tip it...it won't be perfect but you may be able to save it...
Maybe rack to secondary now , drop the temp and throw some new yeast at it.....This is of course in my opinion...i'm sure others may have other ideas...
Good luck
Ferg

 

[benno1973]

Personally, I hate Saflager, although I've heard it's better fermented a little higher (like 13-14C). I'd say 17C won't have hurt it - if anything it'd be happier at that temp, just the beer wouldn't taste as nice. Drop the temps to around 13C if you have temp control. If not, better off sticking to ales

 

[Baulko Brewer]

I repitched another packet last night and now have the temp set at 10.00 degrees.

I started glooping almost immediately

I will take a reading again in another couple of days and see how much it drops.

Thanks again for your insights.

PS Kaiser, I have read (mostly on this forum) that Saflager is inferior to other yeasts, but my local HBS- Country Brewer only sells this product. Until now I have not had an issue with it

 

[Pennywise]

I started glooping almost immediately

Excellent, but let us know how the brew goes :lol:

PS Kaiser, I have read (mostly on this forum) that Saflager is inferior to other yeasts, but my local HBS- Country Brewer only sells this product. Until now I have not had an issue with it

The only decent Lager I've brewed was done with Saflager at 19 degrees. 19 degrees for 10 days, then 0 degrees for 10 days, same way Craftbrewer do some (all?) of their Lagers with certain Saflager strains, I'm pretty sure they are 34/70 & S-189 but happy to be corrected. So I'd almost garentee that the temp was not the issue, prolly more so the overall health of the yeast pack & underpitching.

 

[Ross]

Something very strange going on here....

A lager yeast brewed at 18c with that starting gravity & nice thick krausen on top, I'd pretty well guarentee it's finished after this time.
i assume you are using a hydrometer & not a refractometer to measure? Are you 100% sure of your readings, as they really don't make any sense?
Lager yeast prefers to be at much higher temps, it's just the resulting beer won't be as good.

No point in dropping temp at this stage if you have a problem, as it won't help, leave it warm - But I'd bet my left nut it's a reading error of some sort.

Cheers Ross

 

[[email protected]]

Another thing which hasent been mentioned is oxygen. Did you boil the whole wort? This will remover all oxygen from the wort. Did you make any attempt to add air to the cooled wort? Yeast will not reproduce without oxygen, they will only ferment. So if the brew had no desolved oxygen the yeast would remain very slim in number and ferment very slowly.

Also where did you buy the yeast? Was it kept refrigerated? I've noticed a lot of shops have dry yeast sitting on a shelf, despite directions to keep them refrigerated. Which I can imagine will really dud a yeast after a little while.

 

[Baulko Brewer]

Hi Ross,

Yes I agree it is perplexing...

I do use a hydrometer and even checked its accuracy in water and read 1.000.

The fact that it wasn't visual through the airlock concerned me initially, but the Krausen gave me comfort. After repitching last night, it is passing through the airlock as per normal, so will need to wait a couple of days to check hydrometer reading. Given the only slight variation in the reading, i think that i may have misread my initial OG and it may not have even moved at all


Paxxy, I did do a full boil, i kept the lid off to allow to cool quicker prior to pitching, as per my normal method. My HBS does just keep the Dry yeast on a shelf

Now that i have repitched it seems to be working normally, I think that I may have underpitched given the high OG as Manticle and Kaiser have suggested

 

[[email protected]]

Paxxy, I did do a full boil, i kept the lid off to allow to cool quicker prior to pitching, as per my normal method. My HBS does just keep the Dry yeast on a shelf

Could definately be oxygen problems then, I'm guessing you also ran the brew through a hose to the fermenter and didn't splash the wort at all.

Next time when the wort is in the fermenter, rest the fermenter on an edge and shake it for a good 5 mins. What this will do is oxygenate the wort. Yeast will reproduce with oxygen and give you plenty of healthy yeast to ferment. Once the oxygen runs out they will start fermenting. Without oxygen you basically will have the yeast from that tiny pack trying to eat all the sugar in the beer to themselves. This is especially a problem when the packet yeast haven't been looked after properly and a lot of them are dead.

Also I would be pretty cautious about leaving the lid off a brew to cool, this is where you will get infections. Air born sores can land in your brew and run amok. Read up on no chill methods.

 

[Baulko Brewer]

Thanks for the advice Paxxy.

I do just pour straight from the wort to the fermenter (Have not ever thought of using a hose). you make a great point about leaving the lid off. I have assumed that since the yeast has not yet pitched it is only a 20 litre batch of liquid, obviously this is incorrect. I think that this has been a lesson learnt. I will still bottle and try it out, but will take the learning from this batch and put them into my next creation

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the advice Paxxy.

I do just pour straight from the wort to the fermenter (Have not ever thought of using a hose). you make a great point about leaving the lid off. I have assumed that since the yeast has not yet pitched it is only a 20 litre batch of liquid, obviously this is incorrect. I think that this has been a lesson learnt. I will still bottle and try it out, but will take the learning from this batch and put them into my next creation

No worries, keep posting here and reading and you will get a lot of handy hints on improving your beer.

 

[fcmcg]

Thanks for the advice Paxxy.

I do just pour straight from the wort to the fermenter (Have not ever thought of using a hose). you make a great point about leaving the lid off. I have assumed that since the yeast has not yet pitched it is only a 20 litre batch of liquid, obviously this is incorrect. I think that this has been a lesson learnt. I will still bottle and try it out, but will take the learning from this batch and put them into my next creation

Unfortunately I've just read the bit in the yeast book that says all your flavor compounds , both good and bad , are made in the first 72 hours...I'd suggest making this beer again and doing what has been suggested above so you can actually taste the difference ! Another suggestion , where are you located ? What about joining or going along to a brew club ? Plenty of advice to be had there , over a beer !Good luck !
Cheers
Ferg

 

[Ross]

Paxxy, Pitching dried yeast without oxygenation is fine, the yeasts requirements are already built in during the manufacturing process.
Check the best before date on the dried yeast, this is based on the yeast being stored at 20c.
Even with a liquid yeast you'll only at worst fall a few points short, nothing like being described here.

It's pointing towards a servere under pitch if your readings are correct, but the brew will still reach expected terminal or very close without any assistance - as you've pitched another yeast, everything should be fine regardless.

cheers Ross

 

[RobboMC]

It took me 4 or 5 brews with Saflager before I finally read the fine print on the back of the pack,
where it says to pitch TWO packets if brewing at 12 deg C. At 17 deg I reckon one pack is enough even if a lowish pitch rate. I had a handful of successes in extract - mini mash brews with Saflager at around 14 deg C using one sachet in up to 28 litres, which is 0.25 g/l instead of nearly 0.6 g/l ( 14g in 23 litres ), so less than half recommended pitch rate. I recorded seeing decent bubbling on 2nd day, and pressure on the air lock at 24 hrs.

So my experience is that a single sachet of Saflager will ferment a properly prepared wort. Being 75% extract brews I used tap water; and I intentionally aerate the water as I add it.

My vote is for a combination of causes - lack of aeration is a prime candidate, but also the yeast storage. My HBS stores all yeast and hops in a fridge, and they admit to being poor brewers. If they can't store it in the fridge I'd find another HBS, or at least another source of yeast.