When Have You Noticed Infection?

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sama

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Have an infected batch.The infection has showed up as milky white film with the odd bubble that breaks up into white plates when disturbed. wort was fermented with white labs Notingham strain,cleared up at about 7 days,top of beer clean as a whistle at(to the naked eye anyhow) about 10 days.Went to rack at day 16 and infection sighted.seemed to flair up overnight.i am wondering wether the bug has been introduced at a later stage(tho fermentors been double cling wrapped and undisturbed) or more likely allways been there and just showed up with less c02 present.the only other infection ive had i put down to opening up for dry hopping.if youve had a infected batch how long into fermentation have you noticed it?
 

Greg.L

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Film yeasts will turn up anywhere there is oxygen and alcohol. It just means you have left it too long with too much oxygen exposure. Either bottle/keg it sooner or check all your seals. You can't get a film like that without O2. SO2 will kill it but it will come back if the air is still getting in.
 

brettprevans

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if your yeast is healthy and thre is no delay in pitching yeast (thus preventing infections from getting hold early on) then you should only notice visible infections once fementation is slowing down. now if its an infection that you cant see then that could be any time, but again it has to compete with healthy yeast, and gnereally speaking the healthy yeast should be able to beat the infecction (not always).

there are only 2 ways to get infections. either it was there in the fermentor to start with (cleaning etc) or you introduced it somehow ie dry hopping (ive only ever had that happen once and it was still drinkable, i just tossed the top few litres), infected air getting in (from grain etc but this is unlikely if its always been sealed), or the cooled wort being put into fermenor was infected/wild yeast on it.

now in saying all of that ive only ever noticed infections towards the end of fermentation (excl purposly infected beers of course). Althought in saying hat, even purposyl infected beers take a while to grab a hold and slowly grow, so again you dont see a wild/infected yeast pellicle form straight away
 

raven19

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My batches lost to infection generally occur at the end of the ferment - however as per CM2's post, wild yeast can also get in early too.

Give everything a good soak then clean.

Fingers crossed this is the last you see of an infection.
 

Swordsman

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I have had a run of infections identical to the OP. I have a photo here somewhere which fits the description. Leads to a metallic taste in the beer, often strips some hop flavour out and makes mouthfeel furry. COmes up late in the process, after fermentation. has happened both when dry hopping and when the fermenter was unopened. Also detected possibly infection flavour on a beer that had no visible signs so it might be living in there partially and competing with the yeast during the fermentation.

Stripped down my brew area and disinfected everything, the floor, walls etc. Am now stripping down the fermenters to sanitise those again.

Any help from people on here with extra tips to catch this infection would be appreciated. I suspect it was coming in with the air through teh airlock (is this possible even with sanitise solution in teh airlock?) or else is getting into the fermenters when i cool the wort down???
 

brettprevans

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I have had a run of infections identical to the OP. I have a photo here somewhere which fits the description. Leads to a metallic taste in the beer, often strips some hop flavour out and makes mouthfeel furry. COmes up late in the process, after fermentation. has happened both when dry hopping and when the fermenter was unopened. Also detected possibly infection flavour on a beer that had no visible signs so it might be living in there partially and competing with the yeast during the fermentation.

Stripped down my brew area and disinfected everything, the floor, walls etc. Am now stripping down the fermenters to sanitise those again.

Any help from people on here with extra tips to catch this infection would be appreciated. I suspect it was coming in with the air through teh airlock (is this possible even with sanitise solution in teh airlock?) or else is getting into the fermenters when i cool the wort down???
http://www.bjcp.org/faults.php

metalic isnt normally an infection (as you can see from the bjcp faults guide). could be a combination of your water and yeast yealth (see the description for sulfury). anything else you can describe to give us some more to go on?

all of my infections have been acetobacter or wild yeast.

I suspect it was coming in with the air through teh airlock (is this possible even with sanitise solution in teh airlock?)
hmm doubtful unless you actually draw in the water from the airlock into the fermentor or your water level is too low in the airlock and air can freely move into the fementor

or else is getting into the fermenters when i cool the wort down???
maybe how do you chill? i suppose if you used a copper coil immersion chiller you might be getting some wtaer from inside the coil coming into your beer giving you the metalic taste but i wouldnt have thought a small amount would be noticable. do you clean the ball valve from your kettle before transferring wort into fermentor? if not and you xfer wort from mashtun into ketle using same ball valve and you dont sterilise the ball valve before xfering from kettle to fermentor you might pick up some wild yeast transfering over with your cooled wort. I tracked a few of my infections down to that. so now i always run boiling wort through th ball valve (post boil) before i chill my wort down so as to superheat the ballvalve and kill an bacteria/wild yeast
 

sama

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I remember cursing at a large moth fluttering on the fluro above pot whilst chilling the wort ,and thinking infection for sure
 

Nick JD

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I remember cursing at a large moth fluttering on the fluro above pot whilst chilling the wort ,and thinking infection for sure
I had a spider fall in to a batch once. Didn't get infected.

The primary cause of infections IMO is sad, underpitched, half-dead yeast. There's always bacteria and wild yeasts in your brew (they're also in your yeast - yup!). Post-ferment infections are all about letting oxygen in.
 

sama

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I had a spider fall in to a batch once. Didn't get infected.

The primary cause of infections IMO is sad, underpitched, half-dead yeast. There's always bacteria and wild yeasts in your brew (they're also in your yeast - yup!). Post-ferment infections are all about letting oxygen in.
the infection only showed after fermentation ceased,so its either air getting in later and infecting?or an earlier infection coming alive once the good yeast army has left the battlefield?
 

Swordsman

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http://www.bjcp.org/faults.php

metalic isnt normally an infection (as you can see from the bjcp faults guide). could be a combination of your water and yeast yealth (see the description for sulfury). anything else you can describe to give us some more to go on?

all of my infections have been acetobacter or wild yeast.


hmm doubtful unless you actually draw in the water from the airlock into the fermentor or your water level is too low in the airlock and air can freely move into the fementor


maybe how do you chill? i suppose if you used a copper coil immersion chiller you might be getting some wtaer from inside the coil coming into your beer giving you the metalic taste but i wouldnt have thought a small amount would be noticable. do you clean the ball valve from your kettle before transferring wort into fermentor? if not and you xfer wort from mashtun into ketle using same ball valve and you dont sterilise the ball valve before xfering from kettle to fermentor you might pick up some wild yeast transfering over with your cooled wort. I tracked a few of my infections down to that. so now i always run boiling wort through th ball valve (post boil) before i chill my wort down so as to superheat the ballvalve and kill an bacteria/wild yeast
Thanks for the help citymorgue. I'm still a extract/partial brewer doing small boils so some of your comments RE all grain processes don't apply. Im pretty sure its not just a fermentation issue causing the flavours. I have had 4 infections, these were with two different yeasts i have used lots of times before without issue (us05 and s04), one was fresh wort, one was kit and kilo basically and two were extracts. I chill the boils down by pouring into a sanitised fermenter and disolving any other fermentables in the hot wort. THen i alow to cool with an airlock on it and sealed up. I put said feremnter in a water bath in a sink (which i have just hit with a dozen disinfectants because of paranoia) and when it is down to about 30deg (for ales) i top up with cold water, aerate and pitch yeast...put lidk back on etc. and away she goes.

I have had no signs (or taste) of infectoin in teh beers dueing the fermentatio process...not even for one of them where the yeast took 48 hours to get going. All goes well, then when the activity dies down i got the infection appear immediately and rapidly worsen usually about 5-6 days after fermenation activity ceased. I do not use a feremenation fridge but all the beers were within fermentation range and stable temp. I have a fridge now (waiting on thermostat) so am thinking of putting this first beer i do under the new regime into the fridge at low temps immediatley after primary. Would this stop the infection from growing if present??

Here is a photo of what i am tlaking about.




Any help appreicated guys because after 4 beers my sense of humour has failed.
 

Deebo

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THen i alow to cool with an airlock on it and sealed up. I put said feremnter in a water bath in a sink (which i have just hit with a dozen disinfectants because of paranoia) and when it is down to about 30deg (for ales) i top up with cold water, aerate and pitch yeast...put lidk back on etc. and away she goes.
How long does it normally take to cool down? Maybe the bacteria is getting a head start on the yeast?
 

brettprevans

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I chill the boils down by pouring into a sanitised fermenter and disolving any other fermentables in the hot wort. THen i alow to cool with an airlock on it and sealed up. I put said feremnter in a water bath in a sink (which i have just hit with a dozen disinfectants because of paranoia) and when it is down to about 30deg (for ales) i top up with cold water, aerate and pitch yeast...put lidk back on etc. and away she goes.
ok a few things.
1. why not pour your cold water in right away to chill down the wort. best thing to do when extract brewing.
2. putting the airlock on whilst still hot is not a great idea unless your careful. becasue your wort is hot and the air outside is cool, its gonna suck in air which means whatever is in the airlock (water etc) is possibly going to be sucked into your fermentor. so if your airlock isnt clean your asking for problems.
3. given the kraussen mark on your fermentor looks like its got the white infection on it as well it looks like its already in your fermentor. you sure your cleaning it well? lid and everything?
4. Nick has a point. are you opening the fermentor lid? people get infedctions from trees and all sorts of shit flying around in the air. try to minimise how many times you open the lid.

Id be blasting your femrentors as well. bleech, vinager for a few days (or a day), throughouly rinse, some PWB or equiv, then some starsan ro equiv. I did this to my fermntors after infections to make sure the bugs die hard.


now in looking at the pic, it looks like the same type of pelicle ive had from dry hopping infections, when ive dry hopped too long after primary fermentation has finished. except mine tasted ok.
 

Swordsman

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How long does it normally take to cool down? Maybe the bacteria is getting a head start on the yeast?
Yes thought of that....could be it. Parts of the sink that were ahrd to clean did have some nasty stuff growing and its obviously very close to the cooling wort. The feremnter is sealed but you never know...takes maybe and hour or so to cool down if you change the water out a bit which i usually do....

Now i have a fermenting fridge i'm wondering if its worth putting the entire fementer in there with the wort in it and let the fridge cool it down....but that would take evne longer....
 

muthead

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Now i have a fermenting fridge i'm wondering if its worth putting the entire fementer in there with the wort in it and let the fridge cool it down....but that would take evne longer....
I usually put a cube of 15 litres of water in my ferm fridge the day before brewing, so have ice cold water to add to the hot wort. Usually has the temp hanging at around 22c after all is mixed. Into the ferm fridge until she's down to 18c and then the yeast goes in. Works for me and doesnt involve any additional hassle, only filling a sanitized cube with water the day before!

Cheers,
Mut
 

manticle

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I've had infections at both ends of the spectrum. Some film growths seem not to affect flavour so if it's one of those later types, taste it and see.

Beginning ones usually taste like arse (and an ugly person's arse).
 

Swordsman

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I usually put a cube of 15 litres of water in my ferm fridge the day before brewing, so have ice cold water to add to the hot wort. Usually has the temp hanging at around 22c after all is mixed. Into the ferm fridge until she's down to 18c and then the yeast goes in. Works for me and doesnt involve any additional hassle, only filling a sanitized cube with water the day before!

Cheers,
Mut
Good idea Mut. Ive only just got the fridge so i might think of that option. The fridge is in the garage not my brew area (downstairs) so i've either got to cool down the wort upstairs or poor in teh water downstairs (like most car guys garages...its not that sanitary). Then again in the old days i used to pour water into the fresh worts and aerate and pitch yeast in the garage in summer to get cooler ale temps and never had any problems....

Now i have a fridge that can fit a cube in it i will go with that option i think...i just bleached the fridge and sanitised it so if i poor it in when its in tehre and put in the yeast and throw the lid on it should be ok....
 

Deebo

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1 hour doesn't seem excessively long. Is the water you add into the fermenter to cool normal tap water (I never had a problem with tap water when doing k&k but I guess something could be in the faucet)?

I've never tried it but have heard people boil water then freeze it and add this to fermenter to cool it down more rapidly.
 

sama

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I've had infections at both ends of the spectrum. Some film growths seem not to affect flavour so if it's one of those later types, taste it and see.

Beginning ones usually taste like arse (and an ugly person's arse).
kegged and tastes good.
 

Swordsman

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ok a few things.
1. why not pour your cold water in right away to chill down the wort. best thing to do when extract brewing.
2. putting the airlock on whilst still hot is not a great idea unless your careful. becasue your wort is hot and the air outside is cool, its gonna suck in air which means whatever is in the airlock (water etc) is possibly going to be sucked into your fermentor. so if your airlock isnt clean your asking for problems.
3. given the kraussen mark on your fermentor looks like its got the white infection on it as well it looks like its already in your fermentor. you sure your cleaning it well? lid and everything?
4. Nick has a point. are you opening the fermentor lid? people get infedctions from trees and all sorts of shit flying around in the air. try to minimise how many times you open the lid.

Id be blasting your femrentors as well. bleech, vinager for a few days (or a day), throughouly rinse, some PWB or equiv, then some starsan ro equiv. I did this to my fermntors after infections to make sure the bugs die hard.


now in looking at the pic, it looks like the same type of pelicle ive had from dry hopping infections, when ive dry hopped too long after primary fermentation has finished. except mine tasted ok.
I have put down an extract recipe of ESB using my newly sanitised equipment. I changed the can it was based off (to a better brand) and it tasted good before so if it tastes the same as the recent off flavours i can pretty safely say it is an infection even if i can't see evidence of it

As per your h elpful post:

1. I will change to this method now i have a fridge i can cool down water in in large quantities. I have 15L fresh wort cubes i can sanitise for thsi purpose.

2.Good point about the airlock...either way it wil be sucking in air thorugh the hole in the top under this situation. I used a santised airlock with metabisulfate water in it this last time...so hopefully that is ok. When i go to the chilled water method i won't have to do that cooling method anymore anyway because of the temp of the added water is much lower...

3. I do suspect the fermenters may have the infection present....i cleaned the brew room mainly as a precaution. I don't know if the krausen ring got the infection marks mainly because i had already moved the fermenter a bit and the remains of the white stuff just stuck on it from the slosing. I have had mold like stuff in the krausen before without trouble....this infection appears on top of the beer not in the ring in my experience. I use napisan stuff to clean off gunk in my fermenters and then hit them with brewsan which says it is a low foam acid anionic sanitiser (basically starsan i assume....phosphoric acid and alkylbenzene sulphonic acid). After that dries i put sodium met powder in them until i need to use them. THen i wash that out, coat the inside with brewsan and the lid etc. and then brew. When i stripped them down this time i changed the taps, sanitised the taps, the lid etc. again. Then i hit the entire thing with boiling water over each surface. If it is sitll there i will go wtih some bleach (would have used but didnt' have any odourless one around).

4. I open the lid on the fermenter to put in the wort, then to add water/yeast and that is it. I dont' open it again until bottling unless i am dry hopping. I stopped dry hopping because i thought it was getting in when i opened the lid but i had it happen on two beers that were unopened until bottling. Both times a few days after activity had totally stopped.

Out of the 4 beers only one was a right off. The stout you can harldy notice the taste of it (that is the one in the photo), the amber you can pick it up bit its not bad and the IPA it is noticeable...it stripps out the hop flavour (which should be in that beer because i used a shitload) and makes the bottles carb up super quick. Has a odd smell also to the beer.....
 

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