What Is The Bubblegum?

[Nick JD]

Is it an ester? Or a group of esters? Is it the same stuff that Wrigley's use in their Juicyfruit? Tastes like it.

Or is it banana + cloves?

Any ideas?

 

[Screwtop]

Is it an ester? Or a group of esters? Is it the same stuff that Wrigley's use in their Juicyfruit? Tastes like it.

Or is it banana + cloves?

Any ideas?

The ester produced is Ethyl acetate, but if you want to cheat you can add a tiny bit of Potassium Sorbate Ssshhhhhh! The Banana ester is Isoamyl Acetate.

Screwy

 

[Nick JD]

Thanks Screwy! So a combo of banana and cloves is bubblegum? These two esters?

I've heard stressing the yeast with low O2 and under pitching ... but what temperature? Some say high (24) some say low (18).

Oh ... for a German wheat.

EDIT: Whoa - you wouldn't want to be collecting honey for your wheatbeer with Isoamyl Acetate on your arms ... it's the thing that makes bees go nuts and sting the crap outa ya.

 

[boybrewer]

Thanks Screwy! So a combo of banana and cloves is bubblegum? These two esters?

I've heard stressing the yeast with low O2 and under pitching ... but what temperature? Some say high (24) some say low (18).

Oh ... for a German wheat.

Yeah stressing out the yeast by under pitching will give you those flavours and by keeping the temps around 18*- 20*C will produce esters more towards the banana side . Don't qoute me on this as I am only a begginer , if you ferment on the low 18* C ish you will end up with a more balanced flavour.


Cheers
beerbelly

 

[stueywhytcross]

Yeah stressing out the yeast by under pitching will give you those flavours and by keeping the temps around 18*- 20*C will produce esters more towards the banana side . Don't qoute me on this as I am only a begginer , if you ferment on the low 18* C ish you will end up with a more balanced flavour.


Cheers
beerbelly

lower pitching rates will increase ethyl acetate levels, as will higher fermentation temps.
what yeast are you using? generally lower temps (18C) will give you more phenolic and clove aromas. higher temps (23C) will give you the banana, bubblegum.

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks Screwy! So a combo of banana and cloves is bubblegum? These two esters?

I've heard stressing the yeast with low O2 and under pitching ... but what temperature? Some say high (24) some say low (18).

Oh ... for a German wheat.

EDIT: Whoa - you wouldn't want to be collecting honey for your wheatbeer with Isoamyl Acetate on your arms ... it's the thing that makes bees go nuts and sting the crap outa ya.

The clovey phenols are quite different. Stressing any yeast strain will cause it to produce esters, some desirable and some not so. Some typical wheat yeast strains will produce Banana and Bubblegum esters if stressed in some way (temp or pitching rate). From experience a higher % of wheat in the grist and using a ferulic acid rest produces more of the clove character.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Thirsty Boy]

don't under pitch your wheat beers - or any beers. This implies the wrong thing. ALL fermentations stress the yeast to a certain degree, and all fermentations produce esters.

When people talk about uderpitching... what they mean is pitching at the lower end of the acceptable range, not at rates actually under the acceptable range. If you actually underpitch, sure, you will most likely get the banana flavours etc, but you run a goodly risk of getting other undesirable too.

So - a lower pitching rate and a warmer temps will increase the banana and bubblegum ester production - but underpitching will produce those and also perhaps a rafts of other undesirable esters, phenols and fusels as well.

I know its a nit picking point, but it always bugs me.


PS - here is an attachment of a chart someone made out of the flavour wheel - it gives the flavour numbers and in some cases the specific chemical compound for the various beer flavours and aromas. (no bubblegum though..)

View attachment Beer_flavour_chart.doc

 

[cdbrown]

I thought the higher temps produced the banana, while the lower temps were the clove/phenols?

 

[MHB]

Nice 1 TB
Thanks
MHB

 

[kabooby]

Well said TB.

I think people should ferment both low and high and taste the diff for themselves.

I personally prefer my weizens fermented around 18C. Even a weizen yeast will produce some fusels @24C.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:

 

[RobB]

When people talk about uderpitching... what they mean is pitching at the lower end of the acceptable range, not at rates actually under the acceptable range.

What are these ranges? I only have two figures in my head: 0.75 million cells/mL/Plato for ales and 1.5 million for lagers.

 

[Nick JD]

What are these ranges? I only have two figures in my head: 0.75 million cells/mL/Plato for ales and 1.5 million for lagers.

I've never been able to count that high. Somewhere around 1.2578 million someone always knocks on the door.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

What are these ranges? I only have two figures in my head: 0.75 million cells/mL/Plato for ales and 1.5 million for lagers.

Thats about it. Around 0.5-1.0 million cells/plato/litre ales and 1-1.5 for lagers. I used to muck about working them out... but found that the Mr Malty pitching rate calculator gave me about the same figures anyway... so now I just use that.

If you use the 3068 yeast... pitch at the recommended rate and ferment at 18C. I reckon thats a great balanced hefe. If you want banana lollies... maybe 19-20. I think bubblegum is a yeast strain dependent thing with different strains producing it at certain temps, and other strains pumping out mostly banana instead. I use a ferulic acid rest to push up the cloves and think that when people say that the cooler temps "increase" the 4VG (cloves) that what is really happening, is that the lower temperature is just producing a cleaner beer from an ester point of view... which allows the clove character to stick out more, rather than there actually being more clove character.

But thats only my theory and I don't brew many hefes... I would probably tend to look for recipes by Les the Weizguy and just do whatever he says to do.

TB

 

[HoppingMad]

I found the 3068 fermented at 21-22 on an allgrain beer gave good banana clove balance but not overpowering (no bubblegum). Tasted some hefes fermented at 24 with this yeast and you get no clove at that level - tastes like a banana smoothie!

On the dry yeast front, a mate of mine did the Fermentis WB-06 at a steady 20 and did get some fruity ester but nothing like the wyeast 3068 for the banana hit and not really clove or bubblegum in much of a way.

I tried the WB-06 really low at 16 degrees constant for an experiment - got citrus & clove coming through and no banana/ or bigger rounded fruit flavour at all. Wound up more like a Witbier (like Hoegaarden) due to the slight sour phenolics due to that temp.

Not a fan of the WB-06 would stick with a Wyeast or Whitelabs for any attempt on this style unless I was throwing on a quick kit beer. Yet to try the other two Wheat Wyeasts but keen to get to them. Also have a dry Danstar Munich which can be used for wheats, but have heard varying reports on that one. Another experiment!

Hopper.

 

[argon]

Bumping this one as it's an interesting discussion and looks as though i've got some unintentional Bubblegum in my latest LFPA.

Figured before reading this, that i must have under-pitched to extract those flavours from US 05. But looks as though, as TB had pointed out, i have pitched at the lower end of the acceptable range. I assume this as i have no other detectable off flavours, just a very fruity APA... which is not the worst thing in the world... just not what i was expecting (especially considering i've done this APA heaps of times) Still very enjoyable beer, which is nice. Just not the crisp, bitter finish i usually get.

From memory i washed some yeast into one 2L bottle and pitched to 2 x 20L worts of a double batch. I calculated i had enough yeast for 40L, but seems as though i may have not got the balance correct when pitching. Haven't tried the other half yet, but hope it has a much cleaner profile.

Lesson learnt... split my washed or re-harvested yeast into 2 bottles prior to pitching in the future.

 

[drsmurto]

2 and a bit years late on the OP but....

The sensory descriptor for sorbate/sorbic acid in wine is bubblegum. It's considered a fault.

Ethyl acetate does not smell like bubblegum, it smells like nail polish remover.

 

[Nick JD]

Wrigley's Juicyfruit is the flavour I associate with "bubblegum" in beer. Isoamyl acetate.

 

[MadMax]

A week or so ago, in my laziness, I just tipped the yeast from 3 tallies of coopers , 2 pale and 1 sparkling, into a fermenter filled with an aussie ale cube. After 3 days there was no activity happening, I didnt take a hydro sample but the wasn't any condensation on the glad wrap or much pressure when touching the wrap, so I went and grabbed another two tallies and tipped the yeast into the fermenter. Within 24 hours I had krausen. But now it has the banana/bubblegum flavour.
I now know that I have stressed and under pitched but my question is, will the banana/bubblegum flavour go away once kegged? Also now that I have a good yeast cake would these flavours transfer to the next cube if I tipped it straight into the fermenter?

Cheers

 

[Maxt]

I like the banana bubblegum. For me, whitelabs gives the bubblegum where wyeast is more banana.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ethyl butyrate (aka ethyl butanoate): very common in beers. Threshold: 400ppb. Common levels in beer: 50-250ppb. Smells of tropical fruit, pineapple, Juicy Fruit bubble gum. Our panel has seen ethyl butyrate in: Alaskan Winter Ale, Hair of the Dog Blue Dot, Stone Levitation, Coors Blue Moon, Deschutes Twilight, Stone Belgian IPA.

snipped from the beer sensory science website

Its mainly strain dependent - some strains do mostly isoamyl, some (particularly some of the belgian strains) do ethyl butyrate.