Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag - Tutorial

[Bribie G]

Ross, yes I was forgetting that the boil off volume should be fairly similar as the circular surface exposed to the atmosphere would be fairly similar in a 60L pot and a 40L one. I was simply multiplying everything by 2/3 but I take your point.

Those 20 L willow cubes are actually 23 L but I'm not sure about any Rays outdoors or BCF type jerrycans.

I don't know about the current BIRKO taps but mine screws off like so:



and everything can be cleaned out - but eventually the plastic thread that goes onto the metal thread of the tap moulding will strip. On the old Birkos the plastic tap had an inbuilt metal thread sunk into it so it was metal on metal, but it's now made cheaper and nastier. And they want $40 for the plastic tap assembly so they can bite their bums. Ball valve is same or cheaper. If your tap is the same I'd recommend getting a tube of proper tap lube like the sponsors sell and smear the threads with a little bit of that for longer life and no cross threading and forcing.

 

[big78sam]

Thanks Bribie, once again you're a great help. I'll give it a go.

 

[boobiedazzler]

For measuring purposes on the Birko Urn, I am using a steel ruler. It appears that as a general guide, 1cm is close to 1litre, Basing this on:

Pi x Radius x Height

or (3.14) x (17.5cm x 17.5cm) x (43cm)

It would mean that the max. volume of the urn is about 41.3litres. Remembering that the element takes up some space, as well as the cake rack in there, as well as the sight gauge nuts and the tap nut, 1cm=1litre is a good rule of thumb.

 

[bcp]

For measuring purposes on the Birko Urn, I am using a steel ruler. It appears that as a general guide, 1cm is close to 1litre, Basing this on:

Pi x Radius x Height

or (3.14) x (17.5cm x 17.5cm) x (43cm)

It would mean that the max. volume of the urn is about 41.3litres. Remembering that the element takes up some space, as well as the cake rack in there, as well as the sight gauge nuts and the tap nut, 1cm=1litre is a good rule of thumb.

Yes, i used the same formula and rule of thumb for the birko. The only thing is that hot water will expand a little - more than i expected. It doesn't really matter because you only have to write down your measurements and make adjustments to your starting volume next time. Having said that - 5 brews in and i'm still slightly unsure of my starting volume even given adjustments for grain bills.

 

[Phoney]

Disadvantages of an urn.

......

Any disadvantages of doing BIAB in a 40 litre pot in general also apply to urns, for example a 25 litre brew of extremely strong beer such as a Russian Imperial Stout would not be a serious candidate for this style of brewing. However for most brewers who prefer their beer between 3.5 % and 6% ABV they should have few efficiency problems.

Well, ive gone against the grain (excuse the pun) and successfully brewed a 8.2KG grain bill for a 23L batch in my urn on the weekend. Obviously, as with all grain bills of over 6kg I had to reserve 4 - 5L in a separate pot, then after hoisting the bag I sparged the grains with that water heated on the stove @ 78C into a bucket.

OG 1085 so dead on 75% efficiency.

It can be done!

 

[Nevalicious]

Well, after thorough reading of the both of Nick JD's threads on the simple AG methods (move to all grain for 30 bucks and 20LT stovetop brewing) and this great thread, it has inspired me to take the plunge to the dark side.

I have ordered one of the 30lt urns off of evilbay (as opposed to the 40lt ones, mine is far cheaper (time will tell if the quality shows it)), went to spotlight and picked up an end of roll (3m) of swiss voile for nix. The grain and hop bags are currently being sewn up by my talented auntie... I guess the only thing left I need to consider is what exactly to brew. Efficiency for my first AG aside, I would like to try something a little more challenging than what Nick did in his original thread (pale malt and 1 x 60 min adddtion of POR, although I realise that was just for the purpose of the example), I have a handle on using specialty grains in extracts and uses and flavours of many different hops, so that shouldn't be an issue...

I've did had a squiz around the site, so many to choose from... Was looking at trying a malt driven dark english ale using preferably EKG as its main hop, pretty much coz I have plenty of it from when I was doing extracts.

Any suggestions to an AG noob on a tried and tested beer of the above style that wouldn't be too difficult?? Maybe a recipe using something a little more complex than just base pale malt (rice, wheat malt??). Any suggestions would be swell

Thanks again guys

Tyler

 

[argon]

Well, after thorough reading of the both of Nick JD's threads on the simple AG methods (move to all grain for 30 bucks and 20LT stovetop brewing) and this great thread, it has inspired me to take the plunge to the dark side.

I have ordered one of the 30lt urns off of evilbay (as opposed to the 40lt ones, mine is far cheaper (time will tell if the quality shows it)), went to spotlight and picked up an end of roll (3m) of swiss voile for nix. The grain and hop bags are currently being sewn up by my talented auntie... I guess the only thing left I need to consider is what exactly to brew. Efficiency for my first AG aside, I would like to try something a little more challenging than what Nick did in his original thread (pale malt and 1 x 60 min adddtion of POR, although I realise that was just for the purpose of the example), I have a handle on using specialty grains in extracts and uses and flavours of many different hops, so that shouldn't be an issue...

I've did had a squiz around the site, so many to choose from... Was looking at trying a malt driven dark english ale using preferably EKG as its main hop, pretty much coz I have plenty of it from when I was doing extracts.

Any suggestions to an AG noob on a tried and tested beer of the above style that wouldn't be too difficult?? Maybe a recipe using something a little more complex than just base pale malt (rice, wheat malt??). Any suggestions would be swell

Thanks again guys

Tyler

Try this on for size... it's essentially Dr Smurto's Landlord ... a clone of Timothy Taylor's Landlord.

Not too difficult, not too simple... 100% delicious. Great English Ale


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 23L
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer:
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 38.00 L
Boil Size: 42.40 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 11.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 32.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.70 kg Golden Promise (Floor Malted (3.2 SRM) Grain 96.67 %
0.30 kg Caraaroma (198.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
45.00 gm Fuggles [4.20 %] (90 min) Hops 12.7 IBU
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (50 min) Hops 12.6 IBU
45.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
2.00 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
10.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 9.00 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 31.19 L of water at 70.8 C 66.0 C
10 min Mash Out Add 18.71 L of water at 91.6 C 75.0 C


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[argon]

Oops!!! put in the double batch... that won't work for you in the 30L urn here's the single batch version (won't let me edit)


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Landlord 23L
Brewer: Argon
Asst Brewer:
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 27.43 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 10.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 31.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.91 kg Golden Promise (Floor Malted (3.2 SRM) Grain 96.67 %
0.17 kg Caraaroma (198.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
26.52 gm Fuggles [4.20 %] (90 min) Hops 12.4 IBU
26.52 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (50 min) Hops 12.4 IBU
26.52 gm Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.21 tsp Koppafloc (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
6.05 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.08 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 17.62 L of water at 70.8 C 66.0 C
10 min Mash Out Add 10.57 L of water at 91.6 C 75.0 C


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[haysie]

what do you urn guys suggest using for a thermometer? I notice some chat about loss of temp during mash, how do you measure that without a fixed probe type thermometer? thx

 

[bcp]

what do you urn guys suggest using for a thermometer? I notice some chat about loss of temp during mash, how do you measure that without a fixed probe type thermometer? thx

I've got a digital thermometer with a long probe. I can pretty much put that inside the bag.


The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.

 

[felten]

The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.

Cook a few eggs with them..... http://blog.khymos.org/2009/04/09/towards-...oft-boiled-egg/ h34r:

 

[Bribie G]

I just use a hand held stick digital thermometer to check:

Temp of strike liquor
What mash temp I actually got
What the temp got down to after a 60 or 90 min mash (out of interest, and for future reference: nothing much else you can do at that stage )

When lagging urn with an old sleeping bag then a doonah I always seem to get about a degree drop per hour, and considering that most of the conversion takes place in the first 20 mins then that's fine by me. If you are using passive lagging like doonahs you could maybe go half a degree higher for initial mash temperature, if accuracy is a worry, and it should all come out in the wash.

On the rare occasion when you stuff up and, when checking the initial mash temp, the mash turns out say two degrees below target then it's easy with an urn, just quickly hoist just off the element, apply a burst of power for only a couple of minutes, pump the mash like buggery, turn off the power and you'll find all is restored to target. An urn can take a fair while to raise cold water to strike temperature, but once you are in the dough in zone, where you are talking just a degree or two difference, it doesn't take 2400w much time to heat up that degree or two. In fact you have to be right on the ball to make sure you don't overshoot.

B)

 

[haysie]

I've got a digital thermometer with a long probe. I can pretty much put that inside the bag.
View attachment 42404

The only thing is i've got two digital thermometers and they vary by about 1.5c, depending on the temp. So... which one is correct? They both seem about right at boiling and freezing, so stuffed if i know.

I have seen these in action, down the inside of a keg spear. The cable part I dont like though.

I just use a hand held stick digital thermometer to check:

Temp of strike liquor
What mash temp I actually got
What the temp got down to after a 60 or 90 min mash (out of interest, and for future reference: nothing much else you can do at that stage )

When lagging urn with an old sleeping bag then a doonah I always seem to get about a degree drop per hour, and considering that most of the conversion takes place in the first 20 mins then that's fine by me. If you are using passive lagging like doonahs you could maybe go half a degree higher for initial mash temperature, if accuracy is a worry, and it should all come out in the wash.

On the rare occasion when you stuff up and, when checking the initial mash temp, the mash turns out say two degrees below target then it's easy with an urn, just quickly hoist just off the element, apply a burst of power for only a couple of minutes, pump the mash like buggery, turn off the power and you'll find all is restored to target. An urn can take a fair while to raise cold water to strike temperature, but once you are in the dough in zone, where you are talking just a degree or two difference, it doesn't take 2400w much time to heat up that degree or two. In fact you have to be right on the ball to make sure you don't overshoot.

B)

Very true, temperature is all about hitting and not so the losses. My mashtun can lose anything from 1 > 5deg on a 90 min mash (pockets) Stirring a mash before mashout also distributes the loss even worse.
Mashing out whilst stirring grain and stirring a stick cant be that hard afterall. B)

 

[Bribie G]

I agree, hitting the temp first up is the goal. With BIAB (provided you have something to thoroughly blend the mash with - like my oversize potato-masher paint stirrer) - you don't get 'pockets' that could come back to bite you, and with an urn you can very quickly rescue a mash that hasn't hit the proper temp.

 

[Mayor of Mildura]

Hi Bribie

This morning I successfully took my new urn on her maiden voyage. All smooth sailing. After a year or so using a bigw 19l pot on my stove (nickjd style) this is pure luxury!

Thanks for the inspiration and this great guide.

Cheers

MOM.

 

[Bribie G]

Glad it worked out well. My first Urn BIAB was my very first AG as well, over 2 years ago - it's an excellent system. I was at a 3V brewday the other day and my kit n kilo mate came along for a look and I was explaining the different steps as they occurred - for example the batch sparging, the trundling the kettle out to the rambo on the patio and lighting it etc. "oh I see, that's like when you stand at the wall and click the switch on for the boil"..

Not rubbishing the other systems, they also make great beer and we all had a great brew day at Winkle's but as you so rightly say, the luxury :drinks:

 

[eviljesus]

Hey guys,

Looking at doing my first batch and it so happens i have a 50L boiler at home ready to roll. 4.5KW element, so very capable.

I'd preferably like to do some double batches, and judging from argon's recipe's posted above, I should be able to do enough for 2 x 23L batches in the one go? (or is he doing 2 x 19L batches?, i suspect he is.

Can you do it like the FWK you see at the HBS where they are about 15 litres, add 5 litres of water? Sort of a concentrate?

Ultimately id like to do a double batch, no-chill it, get one batch fermenting straight away and leave a cube for later.

 

[theredone]

hey guys,
did my first brew in new urn last night, didnt really think about hcf, just thought more water so more hops..... giving it more thought now i think ive done it wrong. the denser the water the less bitterness extracted? thus watered down wort(pre boil 35ltrs ish) would extract more? meaning i should decrease the amount of hops?

not too sure on this one

cheers
red

 

[Bribie G]

If you are talking full volume brew in a 40L urn, then the density of the wort should be the same as any other mashing method, e.g. 3 vessel or HERMS etc and wouldn't affect the quantitiy of hops at all. Think of it this way - by the time you have drained and got rid of the bag, then BIAB has done its job and assuming you are heading for a "normal" 23 litre-ish brew and an hour or hour and a half boil, then no hop adjustment needed, if you are following a recipe designed for that size batch.

I think you may be getting a bit confused with the "over gravity" brewing as practiced by MINI BIABers who use smaller pots - NickJD or RdeVjun may wish to comment on that. :icon_cheers:

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah, sounds like over- gravity boil to me? red, we need some more details to be sure about this and I'm not sure what you mean by 'hcf'
Which ever way, a general rule of thumb is when the boil gravity exceeds 1.050, add 10% more IBUs per 0.010 over that figure- i.e. the stronger the wort the lower the hops utilisation (search will turn up heaps of resources). However, if your software is aware, it should factor that in automagically (but not all of them can handle over- gravity boils sensibly). In practical terms though, unless you're dealing with quite unusual wort, it is generally not worth getting excited about.