Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag - Tutorial

[Crusty]

Hi Crusty

I have a Crown 40l concealed element urn with a camping mat for insulation and get 3.4/3.5 litres per hour evaporation (in unheated garage).

Water losses about 4% in volume cooling from 100C to 20C so you may get a bit more.

BIAB Spreadsheet may be of help Link lastest version in post 30

When you say camping mat, do you mean the thick stuff that goes together like a jigsaw puzzle or the cheap blue mat that you can sleep on? I am worried that it might melt whilst boiling as the urn is way too hot to touch when boiling.
I don't have excel which is a real PITA. I would love to use the spreadsheet but can't unfortunately.
Looks as though you have spent quite some time on the project mate, top effort.

 

[eviljesus]

Well just finished my first BIAB.

Very easy, didnt take too long. It just cooling down now so I can pitch tomorrow hopefully!

 

[Crusty]

Well just finished my first BIAB.

Very easy, didnt take too long. It just cooling down now so I can pitch tomorrow hopefully!

More info please. How did it all go?

 

[eviljesus]

Went excellent! My urn took a bit to warm up but I've got the cake tin ready for the next batch which will (hopefully) be happening this weekend). That should get everything up to temp properly. I'm also going to take a bit more time to check strike temps and get them bang on next time. They were pretty close, (plus, minus 2 degrees) but should they be closer? Is it worth the effort?

My final gravity was 1.030, which is very thin I know. I don't think it was an efficiency problem or a problem with the actually BIAB process itself, moreover I attempted the sparge in a bucket and clearly used WAY too much extra water I boiled onwater. What is the max amount of water you would use for a sparge? Is it even worth doing to squeeze every last bit out of the grain? How do you guys do the sparge in a bucket?

Also was a bit excited so forgot to add the whirlfloc but a bit of haziness really doesnt faze me at all.

The US05 is currently making its way through it at 20.3 degrees (when i checked last). I am EXCITED to be kegging and drinking this thats for sure.

 

[Crusty]

Went excellent! My urn took a bit to warm up but I've got the cake tin ready for the next batch which will (hopefully) be happening this weekend). That should get everything up to temp properly. I'm also going to take a bit more time to check strike temps and get them bang on next time. They were pretty close, (plus, minus 2 degrees) but should they be closer? Is it worth the effort?

My final gravity was 1.030, which is very thin I know. I don't think it was an efficiency problem or a problem with the actually BIAB process itself, moreover I attempted the sparge in a bucket and clearly used WAY too much extra water I boiled onwater. What is the max amount of water you would use for a sparge? Is it even worth doing to squeeze every last bit out of the grain? How do you guys do the sparge in a bucket?

Also was a bit excited so forgot to add the whirlfloc but a bit of haziness really doesnt faze me at all.

The US05 is currently making its way through it at 20.3 degrees (when i checked last). I am EXCITED to be kegging and drinking this thats for sure.

Nice one, seems like it went pretty well. I'm not going to sparge at all, it's probably not worth the extra effort for the minimal gain in efficiency. Although I have been all grain brewing for around 5yrs, I am a complete noob at biab. I have got my 40lt Crown exposed element urn, grain bag, hops bag & a new MashMaster Minimill. I am just doing some water tests & temp rest tests to see how much temp I loose in 90mins. I am looking at hitting Bunnings this week & getting a skyhook of some kind & some other bits & pieces. I am just going to follow BribieG's advice & see where I end up. BeerSmith tells me 33lt into the urn, heat to 69deg, bag in & grain in, hopefully that's 66deg rest for 90mins. Raise temp to 78deg whilst pumping with paint stirrer & once at 78, give the mash a good pumping, remove bag & drain naturally whilst getting to the boil. Just before the boil, squeeze the bag into a bucket & add to the urn, 60min boil.

 

[edschache]

When you say camping mat, do you mean the thick stuff that goes together like a jigsaw puzzle or the cheap blue mat that you can sleep on? I am worried that it might melt whilst boiling as the urn is way too hot to touch when boiling.
I don't have excel which is a real PITA. I would love to use the spreadsheet but can't unfortunately.
Looks as though you have spent quite some time on the project mate, top effort.

I use one of the ones you'd sleep on - a decent thick one that is actually half decent to sleep on. I wrap an old towel around the urn and then put the sleeping mat around that. I forgot the towel once and the mat melted slightly but I noticed before the full boil so not a disaster. With the towel between the urn and the mat it's always been fine.

With this setup I get a fairly vigorous boil - I don't think you'd need it any more aggressive.

 

[Crusty]

I use one of the ones you'd sleep on - a decent thick one that is actually half decent to sleep on. I wrap an old towel around the urn and then put the sleeping mat around that. I forgot the towel once and the mat melted slightly but I noticed before the full boil so not a disaster. With the towel between the urn and the mat it's always been fine.

With this setup I get a fairly vigorous boil - I don't think you'd need it any more aggressive.

Cheers mate.
I was pretty certain that rubber mat would melt to the urn for sure. I might just look at wrapping the urn just for the sacc rest & whip it off for the boil. I tested the urn with 33lt of water & the boil was a gentle rolling boil & good enough I think. I lost 3lt to the boil so I think the boil vigor is about right.

 

[Bribie G]

Hi Crusty
Just did a double batch (second one boiling now) - No sparge - something I forgot to mention, get a pair of rubber gloves from Aldi and give the bag a really good squeeze, you'll get an extra litre out of it.

 

[Crusty]

Hi Crusty
Just did a double batch (second one boiling now) - No sparge - something I forgot to mention, get a pair of rubber gloves from Aldi and give the bag a really good squeeze, you'll get an extra litre out of it.

Will do Bribie
Heading to Grafton on Thursday so will drop in to Aldi
Anything special I should be looking for with skyhooks/pulleys? Maximum weights etc.

 

[eviljesus]

Excellent. Sounds like i've done alright then by the sounds of everything.

a pair of rubber gloves will help. I was trying to squeeze the bag/grab hop bag for additions and it was pretty ******* hot. I didnt find a skyhook necessary for a normal batch. That said, i picked it up. Let it drain for about a minute and then put it in an old fermenter and sparged in there. Bribie, do you sparge, if so, what is your process so the brew doesnt end up thin? or did i just mess it up?

Crusty, my urn had absolutely no issues getting to the boil without any mat/etc around it. Sure it could of been faster, but it wasnt a ridiculous wait.

 

[Crusty]

I assume most people are using hop bags to reduce final trub etc but is it ok just to toss pellets in?
Not too sure if it's a good idea getting too much hops into the cube if no chilling.

 

[Bribie G]

Pellets aint pellets. For example yesterday I did an American Wheat on 18g of Simcoe, single addition. Plenty bitter. And I tossed the pellets straight in.

However if using a lower AA hop and maybe up to 120g in a brew such as a Pommy IPA with mobs of Fuggles, Challenger, Styrians then throwing the pellets in can produce a lot of green jelly swamp slop at the end, and rob your wort volume.

I use a CraftBrewer grain bag and peg it round the top of the urn to give the hops a little swimming pool. It retains nearly all the hop sludge very well and the hop material gets a good boil as the steam bubbles are forced up through it, nowhere else to go. The bag tends to billow up, you can chuck a few SS kitchen spoons it to weigh it down. A MUST for hop flowers.

Edit: not the CB BIAB bag, its the two foot X two foot one on the old scale, about $8 - I think it's also the same as a paint straining bag from a deco shop (You love those deco shops don't you Crusty )

 

[Wimmig]

When doing BIAB i alwayes hoisted the bag up with a skyhook and left it there for a good hour or so while the urn ramped right up. At this time, even squeezing it gave little output.

As for the hop bag, i used one to reduce clean times and trub / rubbish. Would do again.

 

[Crusty]

Pellets aint pellets. For example yesterday I did an American Wheat on 18g of Simcoe, single addition. Plenty bitter. And I tossed the pellets straight in.

However if using a lower AA hop and maybe up to 120g in a brew such as a Pommy IPA with mobs of Fuggles, Challenger, Styrians then throwing the pellets in can produce a lot of green jelly swamp slop at the end, and rob your wort volume.

I use a CraftBrewer grain bag and peg it round the top of the urn to give the hops a little swimming pool. It retains nearly all the hop sludge very well and the hop material gets a good boil as the steam bubbles are forced up through it, nowhere else to go. The bag tends to billow up, you can chuck a few SS kitchen spoons it to weigh it down. A MUST for hop flowers.

Edit: not the CB BIAB bag, its the two foot X two foot one on the old scale, about $8 - I think it's also the same as a paint straining bag from a deco shop (You love those deco shops don't you Crusty )

I do love deco shops, just not the useless ones around here. I ended up getting a paint stirrer like yours from these guys. 620mm long & the mash paddle is 130mm wide. $8.95 for the stirrer & $12.00 for postage, bloody useless local paint shop :angry:
I did buy this hop bag from Ross but when it turned up I thought I got the wrong one. I could get 10kg of hops in that thing. Sounds like it's what you are using so all good.

 

[Bribie G]

Yup that's the bag, I've got two - you are right on the money

 

[Samuel Adams]

How much grain can these 40L urns handle ?
I understand a 9% RIS is out of the question but would I be able to do a 7% IPA at all ?

 

[Crusty]

How much grain can these 40L urns handle ?
I understand a 9% RIS is out of the question but would I be able to do a 7% IPA at all ?

A 9% beer is quite doable in a 40lt urn but you won't be doing a 23lt batch of beer, more like 15lt or maybe a tad more.
My biggest beer is a Bierre de garde & is 23lt @6.29%, 1.064, 80% efficiency. This gives me a total mash volume of 38.9lt so you wouldn't want to go too much more than that. You could also look at maxi BIAB but almost every beer I do is in the 4-6% range & that suits me & my equipment.

 

[Samuel Adams]

A 9% beer is quite doable in a 40lt urn but you won't be doing a 23lt batch of beer, more like 15lt or maybe a tad more.
My biggest beer is a Bierre de garde & is 23lt @6.29%, 1.064, 80% efficiency. This gives me a total mash volume of 38.9lt so you wouldn't want to go too much more than that. You could also look at maxi BIAB but almost every beer I do is in the 4-6% range & that suits me & my equipment.

Cheers Crusty !
Almost sold on the urn just looking into other options first

 

[Bribie G]

You can do a full sized 9% ABV batch in an urn provided you are prepared to do a genuine substantial sparge on the side and return those runnings to the urn. Then possibly but not necessarily do a longer boil to concentrate the wort back to the level you would normally get for a full batch.

All it takes is a bucket such as a Bunnings handi pail or a $8 20L laundry bowl.

I haven't done the exact calcs on the method as I've only done it a couple of times. However once you have done a few brews you will know where the initial wort level should be to yield a cube full, and mark it on your sight tube.

I have a couple of marks for 60 min boil and 90 min boil.

Just keep sparging and adding back into the urn till you are at your chosen mark, and if the OG of the runnings is still above 1018 keep on and add to urn and see where you end up.

 

[Crusty]

Cheers Crusty !
Almost sold on the urn just looking into other options first

If you decide on the urn, go for the exposed element. It was suggested to me to go that way & I'm glad I did.
A few guys have had a bit of trouble with the concealed element urn switching on & off during the boil & it appears to be less of a problem with the exposed element. A recipe containing protein rests may cause the exposed element to do the same but I don't do protein rests anymore. I find that it really plays havoc with head retention in my beers & these days we are using highly modified malts & I don't think they are necessary. Of course that's purely my opinion & I'm sure others will contest that.
Cheers