Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag - Tutorial

[bcp]

Ok, i've just purchased a 40litre Birko urn and want to set it up on Beer Smith.

Can someone post their 'my equipment' profile?
Are there any other changes in the Options or anywhere else?

 

[BjornJ]

hi, don't have beersmith on this computer but the values are:

material: steel
loss to boil was 3.5 litre per hour
loss to trub 2.5 litres (after tap stops running this is left in kettle)
Veight 5.1 kg.

it takes mine 15 min from mash temp 66 degrees to reach mash-out at 76.
(with a steel colander over the element to not burn the bag)


hope this helps, thanks.

 

[Phoney]

So far ive been doing a single long mash where I heat water up to strike of say 68C, dump the grain, and passive lag for 90 mins.

But how would I do a mash schedule like this?

5 min Mash In Add 18.00 L of water at 36.6 C 35.0 C
15 min Protien Rest Heat to 52.0 C over 10 min 52.0 C
60 min Sacch Rest Heat to 63.0 C over 10 min 63.0 C
20 min Step Heat to 72.0 C over 2 min 72.0 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C

It may be as simple as turning the urn on & off, stirring with the mash paddle while it's on so as not to overheat the grain closest to the element, and monitor the time & temperature...but is there anything else I may need to know? Ive never done one of these multi-step mashes before.... (All these words like infusion, decoction, sacch rest, protein rest, confuse the bejeezus out of me!)


Cheers

 

[PistolPatch]

(All these words like infusion, decoction, sacch rest, protein rest, confuse the bejeezus out of me!)

LOL phoney! Was just taking a break from some other stuff and saw your post.

Great question though. It could be one to ask in a separate topic or send Thirsty Boy a PM asking him to comment as he knows this sort of stuff.

The only problem I can see here is providing heat quick enough with an urn???

As you say, you can apply heat and keep stirring (or raise the bag during heat application) but I am worried you might be standing there a very long time

The other question to consider (and the main reason I am replying here) is, "Should I even worry about a multi-step mash especially over such a wide temperature range?"

There are blokes over here that win Gold medals on lagers all the time and never step over such a range, if at all. For me, that says a lot.

These things are great to learn about but sometimes I wonder if they are even worth trying.

What I'm trying to say is ten points for the willingness to experiment but don't get over-confident that you will produce a better beer.


Pat

P.S. Not sure how well the spreadsheet mentioned a few posts above works for urns as I was only able to get figures on this from two urn brewers at that time - bribieG and crundle.

 

[Phoney]

Thanks Pat

The question to consider is a good point. In fact for the dark ale I will be brewing this weekend with the above mash-regime I may not bother as you say and just do as I normally do and hope for the best. However ive been reading a lot on wit's and wiezen's lately and most of the experts in the style seem to be very adamant on a mult-step mash to acheive the best results, so this is something that I want to be able to at least have a have a crack at and hopefully master eventually... I might start up a new thread on this topic tomorrow!


As for the spreadsheet, for calculating water volumes it works beautifully! In fact ive gone one step further and marked out volumes with a permanent marker on my urn right beside the sight level, from 20L up to 33L. This means I no longer have to measure the water im pouring into the urn when im initially filling it up, and it also means that after raising & squeezing the bag if I find for that some reason im lets say a litre below my pre-boil volume, I sparge a litre of hot water through the spent grain, give it a squeeze and then do a top up..... Or on the other hand if im a litre over I just boil it off until it's right, and then start my timer. I would highly recommend all urn BIABers (who dont know their equipment like the backs of their hands) do this!


Cheers! :icon_cheers:

 

[PistolPatch]

Top post phoney!

Glad to hear the spreadsheet works out okay on the, "tall narrow," vessells (urns). Very pleasing. Even better, it is great seeing guys like yourself passing on quality advice to Electric Urn BIABrewers - an area I know too little about.

I am very disappointed in you talking about Wits and Weizens though and will probably tell Batz on you Wheat beer is not beer!

LOL,
Pat

 

[Phoney]

I am very disappointed in you talking about Wits and Weizens though and will probably tell Batz on you Wheat beer is not beer!

LOL,
Pat

No, it's the nectar of the gods!

Cheers

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks Pat

The question to consider is a good point. In fact for the dark ale I will be brewing this weekend with the above mash-regime I may not bother as you say and just do as I normally do and hope for the best. However ive been reading a lot on wit's and wiezen's lately and most of the experts in the style seem to be very adamant on a mult-step mash to acheive the best results, so this is something that I want to be able to at least have a have a crack at and hopefully master eventually... I might start up a new thread on this topic tomorrow!


As for the spreadsheet, for calculating water volumes it works beautifully! In fact ive gone one step further and marked out volumes with a permanent marker on my urn right beside the sight level, from 20L up to 33L. This means I no longer have to measure the water im pouring into the urn when im initially filling it up, and it also means that after raising & squeezing the bag if I find for that some reason im lets say a litre below my pre-boil volume, I sparge a litre of hot water through the spent grain, give it a squeeze and then do a top up..... Or on the other hand if im a litre over I just boil it off until it's right, and then start my timer. I would highly recommend all urn BIABers (who dont know their equipment like the backs of their hands) do this!


Cheers! :icon_cheers:

A copy of the spreadsheet would be great. Water volume is the one 'wobbly' factor I have come across with BIAB using a 40 L urn, as it's a full volume method. For example using a 3.5 k grain bill for a mild leaves you, after hoisting and squeezing, with far more wort pre-boil than a 6k bill for an American Amber and like you I've resorted to sparge in a bucket etc to build up the volume so, after a 90 min boil it will fill a Willow cube. Also it's not just a straight "x kg of grain will absorb y kilos of water so work it out stupid" - I often use a fair whack of adjuncts and find that, say 4 k of grain plus a kilo of rice ends up giving you more pre boil wort than 5 k of straight grain - the rice (or maize) seems to mostly disappear into soluble sugars.

 

[Phoney]

A copy of the spreadsheet would be great.

It's on page 5 of this thread

LINK

Is that the one you mean?

 

[PistolPatch]

It's a tad hard to find the latest spreadsheet (almost impossible really) so here it is...
View attachment BIABrewer_Volumes_Spreadsheet.xls

Am working on finding someone to add some very simple grain and hop calcs to the sheet.

Fingers crossed
Pat

P.S. Phoney may have linked the right one but I have so many versions on my computer alone, it is too time-consuming to check!

 

[potof4x]

Hoisting the Bag

A skyhook is welcome, I just use a single pulley which is a cheap awning pulley with a fairly thick cord to avoid it slipping off the wheel and jamming.

View attachment 29910

On hoisting, the cord can be tied off and the bag left to drip at its own pace while the wort is raised to the boil. If no skyhook then raise manually and squeeze, then drain into a nappy bucket hanging off a doorknob. I have even hung mine off the freezer door of my dead fridge. I won't beat around the bush here .. hoisting and draining is the unpleasant aspect of BIAB, probably as much a PITA as having to scoop kilos of spent grain out of a mash tun and clean it and the braid, no free lunches. Unfortunately Bunnings etc don't seem to stock light double pulley tackle for some reason but some BIAB brewers may have ideas on a double pulley design.

BribieG August 2009

All that is required for for a double pulley system is another pulley identical to the one you already have, another anchor point and roughly double the rope.
To setup, leave your original pulley where it is. Add another anchor point next to it (looks like a piece of string on a beam is used in the above photo). Then run your doubly long length of rope through your original pulley, through your new second pulley and then attach the end of the rope to your new anchor point. The new pulley will 'run' up and down with the bag, and it will take exactly half the force (but twice the time) to lift the weight of the bag.
Hope this helps!

 

[leiothrix]

I got me a hoist. I had a single pully and found it to be a real PITA trying to juggle everything. Because there is no ratchet on it it was kinda hard to do everything with only two hands.

Hoist is great though - press a button and it moves all by itself.


Edit: No affiliation, blah blah. Used their photo because I couldn't be arsed going down to the garage and taking a photo.

 

[Phoney]

That's a fine BIAB bling addition you've got yourself there! How much did that set you back if you dont mind me asking?

 

[leiothrix]

I got lucky on an auction and got it for $61 + $27 shipping.

At the moment they have it (linky) for $109 + $27 shipping buy-it-now.

Rob.

 

[Bribie G]

I'm impressed :icon_cheers:
Even at the big price it's still in the league of a Counter Pressure Bottle filler, or a filter, so not outrageous.

With the single / double pulley thing I've spent $6 on a wall cleat and can now lift the bag with left hand to a suitable height then do a quick cleat hitch and it's sweet. Should have got one a year ago. Even with a fairly big grain bill, and I'm no Sumo Wrestler, I can hold the bag up for long enough to do a quick swoosh swoosh swoosh with my other well trained hand and everything is tied off nicely.

 

[epe]

I have been doing my brewing in a bag by adding the strikewater to a common amount of 3 liters/kg. And then adding boiling water to sustain or raise the temperature. This way you can easily have a mashout and do the actual mashing at normal water to grist ratios. The extra water propably isn't a problem. Ihave just been doing my brewing that way because to me it feels easiest.

Yuo'll obviously have to keep track of the added water to reach the final beer volume + boiloff + water absorbed by the spent grain (about 0,7 liters / kilo of grist). For my standard OB I'll use about 20+2+3,5*0,7~25.

I just love this BIAB method. It is so simple and it led me to all grain brewing. I started my experimentations in a 10 liter pot with a big nylon hopbag. That way you van easily extend your kits and extracts or just try all grain brewing. It isn't much harder than steeping grains.

In europe we have these normally 27-30 liters canning cettles wich work fine for 20 liters of lower gravity beers.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

absolutely nothing wrong with doing it that way epe - the only reason to use the high water to grain ratio, is that its a way to avoid needing another vessel in which to heat extra water. This was a goal of the original BIAB design. One vessel only needed - it was in fact nearly the point of BIAB to be done in a single vessel considering the method grew out of a thread about brewing in a single pot. So... the high L:G ratio was a result of the one vessel limitation. Its not in any way a requirement of BIAB brewing to brew at high L:G ratios, if you happen to have another vessel to heat up extra water in.

The simplest and easiest way to do a BIAB is to have a bigger pot, use all the water at the start, not bother with a sparge and just go.... BUT if a bigger pot is harder for you than an extra pot, the situation becomes reversed and the lower L:G ratios make a lot of sense.

TB

 

[boobiedazzler]

this excellend thread has inspired me to take the plunge into all grain brewing so im gonna pick up a birko this arvo. can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there

 

[Phoney]

can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there

Pop your urn on top of a milk crate and it'll be at just the right height for the cube's opening to sit underneath the tap.

 

[Ross]

this excellend thread has inspired me to take the plunge into all grain brewing so im gonna pick up a birko this arvo. can someone tell me how to attach a length of pipe to the tap so hot wert can be run straight into a cube, will i need to change the tap to a ballvalve or can i wedge one right up into it and will it stay there

1/2" silicon hose fits the Crown Urns we sell perfectly - I assume the Birko has a similar tap if that's what you've decided on.

Cheers Ross