Troubleshooting A Taste Issue With 2 * Biab All Grain Brews

[tumi2]

Hi all
I am after some help...
I have done 2 * BIAB AG brews now and have had the same taste appear in both.

The background is that the first one I did I had some trouble transferring the hot wort into the N0 Chill cube so I basically poured it in and as a result it splashed around quite a lot.

Having tasted the beer now it has a very distinct cardboard aftertaste and this taste was apparent pretty early on in the fermenting stage. Other than the aftertaste the initial taste and aroma is quite nice but the after taste is bad enough to make me consider tipping it down the drain. The brewing process for this attempt had some other minor issues like mashing to hot so my fermenting was a little less than desired.
Anyway, so I thought I would attempt the exact same recipe a second time and this time get my brewing and transfer process spot on.
So I did just that and the transfer to the cube of hot wort went as smoothly as I imagine I could get it. Very little splashing and the wort transferred smoothly into the cube with the tube outlet under the wort level.

I tasted the wort the next day when transferring into the fermenter, aerating and pitching yeast. The wort tasted quite good with some good sweetness balanced with hops.
Unfortunately, I tasted the wort again after ferment had finished which worked very well this time (1040 down to 1015) and bugger me the same wet cardboard taste appears as an after taste again. Probably not as bad this time but certainly enough to make it not drinkable. Im very disappointed about this as I feel my brew day went very smoothly.
I am struggling to think of reasons for the taste. My only thoughts are as follows:
- The wort was exposed to oxygen during my vigorous whirlpool wort is hot when I do this as i no-chill
- An infection of some sort
- The yeast makes these tastes (SafAle S04 the blue packet)
- Bad recipe (See my post in here for the recipe - http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11694&st=1160&p=472021&#entry472021
If://http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/for...#entry472021
If anyone can help me that would be great as I am a bit reluctant to try another AG brew now.
Thanks

 

[Adamt]

Wet cardboard is definitely oxidation. How vigorous is your whirlpool? Might I suggest you skip that step next brew?

 

[tumi2]

Wet cardboard is definitely oxidation. How vigorous is your whirlpool? Might I suggest you skip that step next brew?

Suggest what you like im all ears as i am inexperienced and new to this. My whirlpool was quite vigourous. A good 3 minute stir, the wort is almost coming out of the pot.

if i drop the whirlpool i suppose i wil get more sediment in the cube but given i leave it for at least 24 hours i suppose i can let it settle out then.

If i drop the whirlpool can i still use the whirfloc tablet.

Thanks for the tip

 

[chappo1970]

I reckon it's not an infection or the recipe but rather as Adamt has said oxidation.

Wet cardboard is definitely oxidation. How vigorous is your whirlpool? Might I suggest you skip that step next brew?

I would whirlpool slightly (if at all) and let it sit a little longer say 20-30mins before transferring to No Chill cube. Just keep an eye on the temp in these colder months.

Cheers

Chappo

 

[buttersd70]

If i drop the whirlpool can i still use the whirfloc tablet.

Thanks for the tip

Yep. It just means that it will drop in the cube.

You said that the oxidised flavour appears fairly early in the fermentation process, but is this prior to racking ie. in primary? If so, then the rack to secondary is obviously not the culprit, and it's likely the whirlpool as suggested. If this is the case, the following is irrelevant, and is more just me thinking out loud.....

have read in the post that you linked to that you racked to secondary, and then again for priming....I'm a firm believer that this shouldn't be a problem, but given that the issue you have def sounds like oxidation, then it might be (unless it is apparent before racking). Q - is racking to secondary something you have done on prior brews, or is it a new part of your procedure? If done before, have you ever had oxidation issues? When you rack to secondary, is it after fg is reached, or is it a proper secondary ferment, ie. racked before fg? And importantly, does the oxidised flavour appear prior to racking ie. in primary? How much headspace is in the bottles? do you cap on foam?

 

[tumi2]

Yep. It just means that it will drop in the cube.

You said that the oxidised flavour appears fairly early in the fermentation process, but is this prior to racking ie. in primary? If so, then the rack to secondary is obviously not the culprit, and it's likely the whirlpool as suggested. If this is the case, the following is irrelevant, and is more just me thinking out loud.....

have read in the post that you linked to that you racked to secondary, and then again for priming....I'm a firm believer that this shouldn't be a problem, but given that the issue you have def sounds like oxidation, then it might be (unless it is apparent before racking). Q - is racking to secondary something you have done on prior brews, or is it a new part of your procedure? If done before, have you ever had oxidation issues? When you rack to secondary, is it after fg is reached, or is it a proper secondary ferment, ie. racked before fg? And importantly, does the oxidised flavour appear prior to racking ie. in primary? How much headspace is in the bottles? do you cap on foam?

Yes it appears while still in the primary fermenter. In the first batch i only racked to the cube for bulk priming but the taste was already present. In the second batch which is still in prgress i racked to a secondary fermenter last night and added isinglass to see if i can clear it. Given that i think i will throw it out i thought i would test isnglass for the frst time and leave it in the secndary for a week or so. FG has stalled on about 1015 which is expected so i think fermenting is complete. But again the taste was present pretty early on in the primary fermenter. That is why i thought it might be the yeast because the taste was not their when i pitched the yeast or at least i couldnt detect it over the malty sweetness.

I leave about 2 fingers of head space in the bottles.

The other difference in the sedond brew was that i aerated it when pitching the yeast using a fish stone but of course this was when the temp was around 20 degs.

 

[buttersd70]

Yeah, cool. From what you said in the other link about the way you siphon to no chill, that sounds fine to me as well, so sounds to me like the whirlpool then. Can't think what else, other than excessive splashing on the stirring of the mash, or excessive splashing when running out of the tun...that's the only other thing I can think of, but I've not heard of those things being an issue other than theoretically.

 

[RdeVjun]

Ok, just floating this up, and no, I'm not trying to stir the HSA pot at all.

Its a little bit, no, actually its quite a lot subjective for us HBers with precious few really objective measurements, but IMO there's wet cardboard and then there's dustiness, both of which aren't too far apart in the flavour spectrum and both of which I've experienced with S-04. Any chance this is the case here?

The first example may well be oxidated (yes, granted- various degrees of skepticism abound about that though), but the second sounds much more like dustiness from S-04 for mine. It wasn't present at the start of fermentation... I've had similar experiences, otherwise I'd probably still be using S-04 instead of liquid yeasts.

Just my 2c... happy to be corrected!

 

[tumi2]

Ok, just floating this up, and no, I'm not trying to stir the HSA pot at all.

Its a little bit, no, actually its quite a lot subjective for us HBers with precious few really objective measurements, but IMO there's wet cardboard and then there's dustiness, both of which aren't too far apart in the flavour spectrum and both of which I've experienced with S-04. Any chance this is the case here?

The first example may well be oxidated (yes, granted- various degrees of skepticism abound about that though), but the second sounds much more like dustiness from S-04 for mine. It wasn't present at the start of fermentation... I've had similar experiences, otherwise I'd probably still be using S-04 instead of liquid yeasts.

Just my 2c... happy to be corrected!

Thanks for the different view point. Both tastes are the same and yes it is a dusty taste but also a wet cardboard taste. !!!!! It is quite strong and pronounced though and very much on the later part of the taste cycle ie late but before swallow. I am now undecided if i should have a 3rd crack at the same recipe and do no whirlpoool to ensure no oxidation or change to a stout and hopefully get a beer that hides the taste fo cardboard. If i do this with no whirlpool and different yeast i dont really find out the root cause.

 

[seemax]

Whirlpooling doesn't need to be violent to be effective. Gentle stirring for 1 minute or less, then let it settle. Have you got a pickup tube, if so what type/shape/etc ? Have you cleaned the tube and outlet tap, etc? Cooled wort and hop residue builds up in no time.

I've splashed hot wort a few times, never had any wet cardboard tastes. HSA may exist, can't say I've experienced it though.

1.040 down to 1.015, hmmm, what was your mash temp? FG seems a little high.

As for S-04, not one of my fave yeasts.. what temp did you ferment? It's possible the flavours are yeast derived, but twice in a row... that's a bit rough !

 

[RdeVjun]

Thanks for the different view point. Both tastes are the same and yes it is a dusty taste but also a wet cardboard taste. !!!!! It is quite strong and pronounced though and very much on the later part of the taste cycle ie late but before swallow. I am now undecided if i should have a 3rd crack at the same recipe and do no whirlpoool to ensure no oxidation or change to a stout and hopefully get a beer that hides the taste fo cardboard. If i do this with no whirlpool and different yeast i dont really find out the root cause.

Ahhh! An excellent diagnostician and inquiring mind we have in our midst! (No, I am definitely NOT taking the piss.) These are precisely the things that I struggled with before moving to a different, less aggressive method for getting hot wort out of my stockpot into a cube (originally through a sieve in a big funnel), but, alas I also started using liquid yeasts at the same time (if you get to try 1768, you'll see why- :icon_drool2: ). So, I never did answer that question satisfactorily for myself.

In the early ESBs, the late dusty taste, IIRC was more from S-04 than oxidation which I thought was more up front. I am so wanting to do some more S-04s to test these loose hypotheses I have. [Sigh... happy days...] I'll report back if I actually get to do any this, I still have some sachets in the fridge, and an extra fridge showing up any day (plus the cool lager weather), so there's a good chance. Good luck with yours tumi2! :icon_cheers:

 

[tumi2]

Whirlpooling doesn't need to be violent to be effective. Gentle stirring for 1 minute or less, then let it settle. Have you got a pickup tube, if so what type/shape/etc ? Have you cleaned the tube and outlet tap, etc? Cooled wort and hop residue builds up in no time.

I've splashed hot wort a few times, never had any wet cardboard tastes. HSA may exist, can't say I've experienced it though.

1.040 down to 1.015, hmmm, what was your mash temp? FG seems a little high.

As for S-04, not one of my fave yeasts.. what temp did you ferment? It's possible the flavours are yeast derived, but twice in a row... that's a bit rough !

mash was between 64 and 66 degs. Ferment was quite violent and started early. I thought that was an OK ferment for the wort but let me know if not. it was much better than my first attempt which was mashed at 69 and stopped at FG 1020

 

[buttersd70]

I'd be checking your thermometer, tumi.

 

[tumi2]

I'd be checking your thermometer, tumi.

Already put it in a medium boil of water and it sat on 100 degs. I think its more my lack of experience in holding temperature. But i know i will get better at this. I have only done 2 AG brews and both have failed with the cardboard taste but i have not lost enthusiasm yet. I better get a drinkable beer next time though or it might be then end of my home brew venture before it even began.

 

[tumi2]

Ok, just floating this up, and no, I'm not trying to stir the HSA pot at all.

Its a little bit, no, actually its quite a lot subjective for us HBers with precious few really objective measurements, but IMO there's wet cardboard and then there's dustiness, both of which aren't too far apart in the flavour spectrum and both of which I've experienced with S-04. Any chance this is the case here?

The first example may well be oxidated (yes, granted- various degrees of skepticism abound about that though), but the second sounds much more like dustiness from S-04 for mine. It wasn't present at the start of fermentation... I've had similar experiences, otherwise I'd probably still be using S-04 instead of liquid yeasts.

Just my 2c... happy to be corrected!

Thanks for the info
So what would be a good alternative yeast for my next Ebglish Bitter Ale

 

[hoohaaman]

I agree with comments above re:S-04, I get that same dusty taste.I get the same from nottingham even in a darker ale.Both at the back of the palate.

I avoid both now.

Try a liquid yeast,I think you will be surprised

 

[Ross]

tumi2,

where are you based? I'd be getting a more experienced brewer to try your beer & evaluate it for you.
I'd be surprised if it's oxidised. If you are in Brizzy drop a bottle into our shop.

cheers Ross

 

[glaab]

G'Day tumi2,

someone pointed out to me recently that when you no-chill it alters your hops profile to some extent, mainly by increasing bitterness. An example he gave was that when he made up a 50l batch with an expected IBU of 40ish, it took 2 days for the wort to cool and the beer turned out way too bitter. I dunno if it can alter the hops profile other than to make it more bitter but maybe no-chill has something do do with your problem, or maybe you have some dodgy hops. I don't know if anyone else suggested this but maybe it's as simple as some dodgy grain or other ingredient. If all else fails maybe you could try a completely different recipe with new ingredients inc yeast and hops. I'm sure you'll get it sorted bloke, it'll just make that first successful brew all the more sweeter

 

[katzke]

I have some ideas but best to get the brew to someone to taste. There are so many odd tastes we can get in beer and it is good to get a second opinion.

Let us know what the taste results are and what they suggest.

 

[RdeVjun]

Thanks for the info
So what would be a good alternative yeast for my next Ebglish Bitter Ale

Hey, that's no sweat at all!

I'd try 1187 Ringwood, 1968 London ESB, 1768PC ESB if you can get it (PM me if you can't), or the legendary 1469PC West Yorkshire (ditto, it will be impossible to find through retail), all from Wyeast, there are other manufacturers as well. There's actually a similar thread underway, some more ideas in it. I wouldn't write off the other dried yeasts at all either, they can play an important role too and many brewers will keep some on standby (I know I do).