Toucan Cider?

[alford_j]

Hi all,

just wondering if anyone has tried a toucan cider? I've made a couple of kit ciders, one with added apple juice and they both finished quite dry- low FG. SWMBO is looking for a sweeter cider- sweeter than the previous ones but not "sweet". Just wondering if anyone has given this a go and if so, what FG they ended up with?

Alfie

 

[bum]

Oh man. I will rarely straight up tell someone what they're talking about is a bad idea - but this seems like a bad idea to me. The artificial sweeteners from two tins would be pretty overpowering, I reckon.

Maybe try some lactose? Lactose is a milk derived sugar which is largely unfermentable so it leaves more residual sweetness than most sugars. You should be able to get it from most LHBS. Try maybe 200g to 300g for a 23L batch?

 

[manticle]

It's something I looked into once but it was suggested to me that the artificial sweetener would become too concentrated.

Another way of sweetening a cider is by adding 500g of lactose which is milk sugar that yeast can't digest. It seems odd but you won't get a milk flavour in your final product.

 

[manticle]

Snap.

 

[alford_j]

That's why you ask the question...

I have read a lot of the simplest cider threads/ lactose ideas etc, but making a bottled slightly sweeter cider seems to be a bit of a trick. Has anyone tried the lactose? If so where the results any good?

Thanks guys

Alfie

 

[Muggus]

I didn't think cider kits contained sweetners?
I thought they were just concertrated apple juice?

Ginger beer kits do contain sweetners, and a toucan ginger beer is definately not recommeneded, not so sure about cider though.

 

[bum]

making a bottled slightly sweeter cider seems to be a bit of a trick.

There is an art to it - an art I must admit to having given up on. I just ferment dry and backsweeten with apple juice on serving these days.

I've tried the lactose (250g if I remember correctly) and while it didn't make the cider sweet it was enough to stop it being dry. You may want to up it some for SWMBO?

Another thing to consider might be looking into lower attenuating yeast. Any effect this might have would be somewhat subtle but it would taste more "natural" than anything you might add.

 

[bum]

I didn't think cider kits contained sweetners?
I thought they were just concertrated apple juice?

I've only made one kit cider and got that chemical aftertaste - perhaps I just fermented too hot? Happy to be corrected and get a definitive answer for Alfie.

 

[alford_j]

I've tried the lactose (250g if I remember correctly) and while it didn't make the cider sweet it was enough to stop it being dry. You may want to up it some for SWMBO?

This is the result I am looking for- not "sweet" like apple juice, but not mouth puckeringly dry and sharp. From memory, in the simplest cider thread some people mentioned FGs of 1010 when pitching a moderate amount of wyeast 4766 and posts about pitching onto yeast cakes seemed to give drier ciders.


Alfie

 

[manticle]

I didn't think cider kits contained sweetners?
I thought they were just concertrated apple juice?

Ginger beer kits do contain sweetners, and a toucan ginger beer is definately not recommeneded, not so sure about cider though.

I can't speak for all of them but Brigalow lists aspartame as an ingredient.

@Alfie: I use lactose in my ciders all the time. I usually make a blend of fresh squeezed apples and store bought juice and use a wine yeast so there is a tendency for bone dryness. The lactose holds the cider back. I'd recommend giving it a crack.

 

[Infinitee]

Yeah the brigalow is :icon_vomit:
Tastes like artificial Flavour and sweeteners - though there must be some real apple in there somewhere.

I like to ferment using real apple juice, either take it to half-dry and bottle it as is
Or take it straight down to dry and prime it with a good bit of fresh juice.
In between appley sweet and cidery dry.

Lactose gives body and sweetness that a lot of "mrs'" seem to enjoy
But it's not to everybodys taste and is certainly not an 'age-old' tradition.

 

[manticle]

If you're kegging it's cool to stop ferment before it's finished but us bottlers don't have too much choice in the matter.

 

[Infinitee]

I'm a bottler too.
Ofcourse, you could ferment it dry and calculate the exact volume of fresh juice to prime with.
But I'm lazy.

They don't take long to carbonate on the fructose/apple-juice.
It's straight into the fridge after a day or two to prevent bottlebombs - drink it a few days later.
Just something to keep the stocks from being depleted in the hot lead-up to x-mas.

And If any drink doesn't need much of a curing to be happily quaffable ...
It's cider.

I just don't get why you'd buy a kit, when the juice tastes so good after a single days fermentation (0.5% sparkling cider) straight from the fermenter.

Plus alcohols bad enough for the liver without adding artificial sweeteners to the mix.

 

[RdeVjun]

If you're kegging it's cool to stop ferment before it's finished but us bottlers don't have too much choice in the matter.

Yes, this is exactly the reason, after an initial batch with Wyeast 4766, I'm looking to try out some ale yeast strains that might leave some residual sweetness but without the potential for bottle bombs, probably start with 1768. Dunno if 1768 will leave cider with the same sweet/ richness that it does in an ESB, but I'll give it a whirl, maybe a splash of LDME as well.

Either that, or spousie, who is insistent I'm brewing her some sweeter/ non- dry cider could be convinced to fork out for a kegging setup to stop it before it dries out! (Yeah right, I wish... )

 

[Nick JD]

Mash your apples at 69 degrees C. :lol:

 

[bum]

And If any drink doesn't need much of a curing to be happily quaffable ...
It's cider.

In my experience the above is incorrect.

I'd also really like to stress that it isn't the best idea to bottle cider (or anything else for that matter) before fermentation is complete as advised above.

 

[alford_j]

I'm a bottler too.
Ofcourse, you could ferment it dry and calculate the exact volume of fresh juice to prime with.
But I'm lazy.

They don't take long to carbonate on the fructose/apple-juice.
It's straight into the fridge after a day or two to prevent bottlebombs - drink it a few days later.

I thought of this today. It is a similar process to kraeusening beer with gyle. If you could find a kraeusening calculator it would be easy enough- I've got some formulas in a book to figure it out.

Would be interesting to try, but still doesn't help with the dryness issue when bottling though.

I also looked for ingredient listing for kit ciders regarding artificial sweeteners- no info on the Blackrock website. Muntons and others have kits in the UK and elsewhere. Who else have kits available in Australia?

Alf

 

[manticle]

Keep it simple to start. Use lactose and as much apple juice as you can afford. Each brew is a learning step and you can tweak the next one based on how they work out.

 

[alford_j]

No answers from Blackrock website etc, but found a ref in this thread Link post 50. This indicates it has no artificial sweeteners in it. If this is the case, I might give a onecan a go ie 1 can, half volume. If it's no good, then juice and lactose it is...

Alfie

Edit: helps if you reference the correct post!

 

[bum]

If it turns out that the Blackrock kit is entirely composed of apple concentrate there is no reason to not do the toucan...except the following two: that tin is something like $35 in my LHBS, even assuming more reasonable pricing you're looking at a minimum of $60 (with a better yeast) for a toucan cider; and if all it is is apple juice concetrate why not just use apple juice?

Good luck with whatever you decide and let us know how it turns out.