Terrible Tasting Pils

[James Squire]

Hello all,

On the weekend I cracked open a bottle of Pilsner that I brewed a good six or seven weeks ago only to get smacked in the mouth with a terrible 'medicinal' type of taste.

This is particularly distressing and frustrating for me due to this being my first ever mini mash and therefore I was hoping for a superior beer compared to my previous K & K brews. :angry:

Not happy!!!

Anyway, after a bit of searching and reading im leaning toward the chlorophenols type of problem for a few reasons...

1. Although my temp control isn't fantastic, the temp (12-17oC) never reached high enough levels to risk autolysis (I believe!). Stand to be corrected...

2. The taste; not yeasty... more plastic like than anything. Its strong, really strong I had only a little sip and the taste was stuck in my taste buds for the next half hour!

3. The sanitiser I used for a little while was a homebrand napisan job, which was slightly perfumed. Kinda citrusy.

4. My focus on cleanliness for my brewing gear possibly leads me to using too much sanitising solution, which i guess could lead to it being harder to rinse out.

The brew was a mini mash using 1Kg pilsner grain, 1 Kg Vienna grain, 1.7 Kgs LLME, Hallertau and Saaz pellets, Bohemian Pils smackpack. Mashed in a bucket, boiled on the stove top, cooled in ice water sink, 1 week prim, 1 week sec, 2 weeks CC, 2 weeks bottled.

Does the chlorophenol infection theory sound right? Should I just continue using the Napisan Oxy Action that I now use and rinse thouroughly and hope to never experience this taste again?

Needless to say, very frustrating weekends tastings!

JS

 

[Steve]

JS - it could be the Napisan giving you the medical taste. Did you rinse two to three times afterwards with very hot water? I had a brew not too long ago that sounds similar. Horrible medicinal taste. But not all the bottles tasted of it. I worked out that the longnecks that did taste medicinal had been washed and left overnight in a napisan solution in the laundry sink. I dont remember giving them a hot rinse afterwards....just a cold rinse and quick scrub with the bottle brush. I put it down to the napisan. I dont use napisan anymore but ive read that if you do use it you have to rinse a few times with very hot water...
Cheers
Steve

P.S. Sorry to read about your disappointment with your first mash.

 

[DrewCarey82]

On the weekend I cracked open a bottle of Pilsner that I brewed a good six or seven weeks ago only to get smacked in the mouth with a terrible 'medicinal' type of taste.

This is particularly distressing and frustrating for me due to this being my first ever mini mash and therefore I was hoping for a superior beer compared to my previous K & K brews. :angry:

Not happy!!!

Anyway, after a bit of searching and reading im leaning toward the chlorophenols type of problem for a few reasons...

1. Although my temp control isn't fantastic, the temp (12-17oC) never reached high enough levels to risk autolysis (I believe!). Stand to be corrected... - Constant temperature level is just as important, when your temps vary in out it can lead to very funky flavours this could be the cause.

2. The taste; not yeasty... more plastic like than anything. Its strong, really strong I had only a little sip and the taste was stuck in my taste buds for the next half hour! Not to sure about this one

3. The sanitiser I used for a little while was a homebrand napisan job, which was slightly perfumed. Kinda citrusy.It is a pils dude - it should be citrusy, but as long as you rinsed with decent water pressure you wont have any dramas with this as a cleaner and sanitiser.

4. My focus on cleanliness for my brewing gear possibly leads me to using too much sanitising solution, which i guess could lead to it being harder to rinse out.
Two level spoonfulls is all you need for a 30 ltr fermentor, but more shouldnt be a problem as long as a decent rinse - cold believe it or not works better - is done.

The brew was a mini mash using 1Kg pilsner grain, 1 Kg Vienna grain, 1.7 Kgs LLME, Hallertau and Saaz pellets, Bohemian Pils smackpack. Mashed in a bucket, boiled on the stove top, cooled in ice water sink, 1 week prim, 1 week sec, 2 weeks CC, 2 weeks bottled. dont do so cant comment.

Does the chlorophenol infection theory sound right? Should I just continue using the Napisan Oxy Action that I now use and rinse thouroughly and hope to never experience this taste again? Done about 30 odd brews using 2 teaspoons of this and rinsing with cold water and not 1 thhing comming close to a drama.

Needless to say, very frustrating weekends tastings! Give it another 6 weeks then try again, I've had beers that have taken that long, plus yours would condition slower then NSW's brewers because of a lower temp.

JS

 

[warrenlw63]

JS.

When you topped up your fermenter with water, was it straight from the tap? (Could explain the medicinal flavours). You'd fare better either filtering or boiling and cooling the top-up water.

Also, I wouldn't rely on Napisan purely as a sanitizer. It's more a reliable cleaner. I'd be sanitizing with a no-rinse like Iodophor.

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

Sorry to hear it JS.

As Steve says, two or three rinses to get rid of the napisan. Another cause of this band aid taste is wild yeast. This link you may have already seen. This one may also be of help.

I had a beer with this taste last year. Really nasty. As you say, lingers on the tongue. It may clear up as DC says, but then again...

 

[Ross]

JS,

The only times I've smelt/tasted that awfull medicinal flavour, it's been from an infected batch - I've put it down to wild yeast (from brewing on windy days) & have taken the necessary steps to prevent it happening again. The aroma/taste can be detected within a few days of the batch fermenting & it's truly disgusting - I hope this isn't what you have...

Cheers Ross

 

[James Squire]

Thanks for the sympathy everyone!

I should note that the pink Napisan has been my cleaner of choice only for the brews in the last fortnight... prior to that I used alternative products and for a short while one of those was this citrus smelling Homebrand stuff.

Warren- yes i top up from the tap but never detected this taste at all before and this brew is just disgusting as Ross mentioned.

Stuster- thanks for the links, I think confirming my suspicions after reading about the phenolic tastes...

Ross- Sounds like the same taste to me mate! Unbearably foul! Its not in any way a subtle flaw in the beer, it is undrinkable!

Hope noone ever has to experience this taste!

Cheers,

JS

 

[James Squire]

Oops, forgot.

Warren- On the subject of Iodophor... I've been meaning to ask you guys for awhile but this experience of mine has highlighted its importance, where do you get it and how much $ is it?

JS

 

[Tseay]

JS,

Another thought,

Have you checked your local water supply analysis for the level of chloramines used ? Chlorophenols can result from these as well as residual chlorine from chlorine based sanitisers.

Unlike chlorine, chloramines are not dispelled on standing or heating. In my part of Sydney chloramine levels are relatively high. I always decant the water I need the night before and add either a 1/4 of camden tablet of 1/4 teasponn of sodium met to eliminate the chloramines and as well as remove any residual chlorine.

Important when it comes to beers likie pilseners whose flavour profiles are easily influenced by off flavours. Might not be your problem but worth checking out.

Cheers

T

PS Your water supplier web site should provide a "typical analysis" of the water supply for your area.

 

[warrenlw63]

JS

Chlorophenols, medicinal and band-aid like flavours can be traced to excessively chlorinated tap water.

At the very least I'd pour a glass of and smell my tap water before topping up the fermenter. I know our water supply is variable in terms of 'chlorine character'. Even though I'm an AG brewer who does full-batch boils I still filter my water through a carbon filter.

JS. G&G Sell 250ml bottles of Iodophor for around $6. It's used 1ml per litre of water. I usually just throw 5 lts of water and 5mls of idoophor in my fermenters and shake the whole lot about. You need around 30 mins contact time, empty and just let it drain without rinsing. :beerbang:

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

Even though I'm an AG brewer who does full-batch boils I still filter my water through a carbon filter.

[post="125063"][/post]​

Ditto to that.

 

[James Squire]

Cheers Warren,

You're right, water quality is very variable and this could have been a particularly bad day for it... I'll definately be wary of it from now on!!!

JS

 

[DrewCarey82]

I'm sure all will agree give it another few weeks as I honestly believe the low temps would slow down the maturation a lot. - I've had beers that have taken 4 months to come good.

 

[pint of lager]

Napisan is a great cleaner and depending on how long you have left it in the fermenter, it requires thorough rinsing. A final kettle full of boiling water will help, but don't get it on the stick on thermometers.

Make sure you buy the unscented variety. Using scented may be your problem.

It can be used as a no rinse sanitiser, but most people would agree, there are better products to use for sanitising.

If you have never had problems with phenolic brews before, it may be an infection or brewing problem with your mini mashing techniques.

Grains are well known sources of infections and you must make sure that any equipment that comes into contact with the mashing side, must not contact the brew post boil. Many all grain brewers make sure that they crush the grain well away from the brewing area to avoid dust contaminating the brew.

The other possibility is that you have oversparged or squeezed the grain when sparging, or that you have over rinsed or squeezed the hops.

Pilsners should never be citrusy, unless you have used an American hops which would move the style away from Pilsner, or have added some lemon.

 

[James Squire]

Hi POL,

Thanks for the help, although new to the "mash game" I am still very concious of contaminants to the brew and im fairly sure my technique is OK. I should also mention that I've since brewed an Amber Ale that I kegged up and am drinking now and it is OK. Mash techniques the same between the two but the sanitiser used was different... Hmmmmm!

The Pilsner itself has no citrusy taste, just a plastic medicinal taste.

The sanitiser i used has the citrusy smell...

JS

 

[Weizguy]

I know that I'm jumping into this debate a little late, but I may be able to provide some other perspective.

The bandaid-y smell and taste could be a wild yeast infection, chlorophenols or bleach used in your fermentor (for cleaning, of course).

I have tasted a chlorophenol beer, and in my opinion, it will have a strong chlorine aroma, distinct from a wild-yeast/phenolic aroma

It has been said that late-hopping (or over-hopping) of a pilsner with Saaz may lead to grassy or medicinal tastes as well, IIRC (and I may not).

If it's hop-related, the tatse will fade as the hops/brew matures.

Seth's 2 cents

 

[Trough Lolly]

...The brew was a mini mash using 1Kg pilsner grain, 1 Kg Vienna grain, 1.7 Kgs LLME, Hallertau and Saaz pellets, Bohemian Pils smackpack. Mashed in a bucket, boiled on the stove top, cooled in ice water sink, 1 week prim, 1 week sec, 2 weeks CC, 2 weeks bottled.

Does the chlorophenol infection theory sound right? Should I just continue using the Napisan Oxy Action that I now use and rinse thouroughly and hope to never experience this taste again?

Needless to say, very frustrating weekends tastings!

JS

[post="125047"][/post]​

Did you crush, mash and boil in the same room on the same day - grain dust is a common source of wild bacteria (especially lactobacillus) infection?
Did you late hop (ie, post boil) the brew with Saaz?
Without trying to be a smartar$e, are you sure you're not smelling fusels from the relatively warm ferment - get an experienced grain brewer to have a taste and confirm the infection - just warn them first!! h34r:

Every time I clean the fermenter, I have a good sniff before finishing - If I can smell anything other than a very faint whiff of iodophor, I restart the clean and sanitise steps - there is nothing more annoying than pouring clean wort into a bad fermenter...
Hang in there - you'll make many more good beers than bad ones!
Cheers,
TL

 

[James Squire]

Thanks TL,

I did mash and boil in the same room but the grain was crushed at the LHBS as i don't yet have a mill.

No post boil hopping... but Saaz was used with 15 mins to go.

Yeah, I don't yet use iodophor, sounds like I need to! Annoying YES!!!

Cheers mate,

Living and Learning,

JS

 

[Steve]

I had to ditch a band aid brew on Thursday night....luckily is was just a cheap coopers lager kit....but its still sad pouring 23 litres down the laundry sink. It had been in primary for 7 days with T58 dry yeast (havent used that before). Was racking to secondary and had the compulsory taste test and there is was! Medicinal band aid. I could taste it for hours afterwards...it even tainted the taste of the beers I had after it.

Cheers
Steve

 

[DrewCarey82]

Reminds me of a morgans bitter I once did! Horrible isnt it.