Sweet taste? Help!!!

[mje1980]

I also like beers on the dry side and often mash in the low 60’s for an hour before lifting the malt pipe, sparging with cold water, then recirculating for 10 mins, let the malt pipe drain and then boil. I’ve done a lot of beers this way and haven’t noticed any downside that I’m aware of.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Iam having a constant issue with my beer coming out overly sweet.
Could you please look over my last recipe and see if anything stands out.
I have taken alot of precautions to lower oxygen to the point that this beer wasn't even dry hopped and then all the standard low oxygen options were followed to packaging.
I suppose the main question is should i ditch all other malts or is it somthing else?
View attachment 119722 Thanks in advance.

I had a batch of beer came out overly sweet, checked the temperature probe on my Guten was 5 C out! I check the temperature now prior to each brew day. Another thing I have been reading about of late, is dough in temperature, something worth taking into consideration.
https://byo.com/article/understanding-enzymes-homebrew-science/

 

[MHB]

Snip
By having a low temperature mash (64 to 69) with no mash-out you get a very fermentable wort. I still sparge but only at Top Heat, you get a slightly lower Og and a nice and dry Fg, long mash long boil. Quite a few breweries do this to certain of their beers I have read this on a number of Yorkshire breweries. It gives a certain taste to the beer, which is why I brew, that I like…. putting a few oats in too. Works a treat with some pale Ales and Bitters

I also like beers on the dry side and often mash in the low 60’s for an hour before lifting the malt pipe, sparging with cold water, then recirculating for 10 mins, let the malt pipe drain and then boil. I’ve done a lot of beers this way and haven’t noticed any downside that I’m aware of.

Fundamentally doesn't make any sense at all. Don't take offence but I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the thinking that got you to this point. If its something you have read please tell me where I for one would like to know where this is coming from.

Ok you want dryer beer, no problem you can get apparent attenuations >100% with a fairly intensive mash regime.
The two main enzymes Alpha and Beta Amylase aren't the only ones that will be playing a role, there is at least one Protease and a type of Glucanase that can both still be slightly active up to the Beta peak around 62-63oC. They aren't going to be making a huge difference to your beer but might be thinning it out a bit.
Mostly we need to look at the Amylases
About the driest beer you can make would come from something like a 120 minute mash at the beta peak, problem is you would probably have a fair amount of unconverted starch and there is a very good chance that you would have a blue wort (not normal to iodine) you would know because when you start the boil it will foam like a mad thing.
The one thing that may help you is that there is a lot of Alpha Amylase in the wort and as you heat to a boil it will act on the starch, if you are heating fairly slowly (<say 0.5-0.75oC/Minute) it will have time to degrade most of the starch. Wont help with your yield though, that's guarantied to be lower than expected.

Mash at a compromise temperature usually that 65-67oC and you get enough Alpha activity to provide more sites for the beta to act on and its not so hot that the beta is all killed of before it does its work.

Two points that may help.
Once starch is degraded into fermentable sugars, you cant undo that later in the mash. Means if you do a reasonably long cool mash that fermentable sugar will still be in the wort, so a step up in temperature wont mean less fermentable sugars.
Second is that Alpha Amylase can and will make fermentable sugars to. A long mash at Alpha peak will not only degrade all the soluble starch giving a higher yield but will make more both fermentable and non fermentable sugars.
OK the wort in total will be a bit less fermentable but if you aren't making extra dry you really don't want an FG under 1.000

I think you will get more of better beer if you do a step mash. Apart from the fact that there is more extract the hotter your wort is (<80oC) the more fluid it so the faster and cleaner it drains and sparges. The same applies all the way to the boiling point its just that over 80oC its hard to control the extraction of husk tannins.

I suspect that you are flirting with one group of problems to avoid another, the better answer is to understand both and take the benefits of each while ducking the problems they can cause.
Mark

The article linked by WEAL is good
As is this one

 

[mje1980]

I don’t brew every beer like this. Saison is one I like to do this for, often 90mins at low 60’s and session beers. More “normal” beers get a short 72c rest but still no “mash out”. Im happy with those beers as well.

Next batch though, I’ll bring the mash up to 76c and see. Ive been brewing a while and I used to do a mash out but tried not doing one and honestly didn’t pick up any difference.

 

[golfandbrew]

Originally I suspected diacetyl as the issue and reading back through again I think that is more likely the case than a mash regimen. I dismissed diacetyl because it looked like he did a d-rest when he provided his ferment schedule, but seven days total with a slow rise to 22 and the high FG has me going back to Diacetyl as the cause again. Some people will perceive diacetyl as butterscotch which the OP could be interpreting as "toffee". Both are sweet after all so I don't think this a big stretch of the imagination. It looks like he is bottling so the warming of the bottles for carbonation could be what is causing the diacetyl to surface.

If it were me the first thing I would change is how I manage the fermentation. There's no need for a slow rise to a d-rest that I am aware of. When you think the beer is ready for the d-rest let it go there or take it there straight away and don't cold crash until you have checked the FG and are confident the beer is finished.

 

[yankinoz]

I'll just address mash temps.

I found steps handy when I had doubts about my thermometer. If you can gradually raise the temp without too much trouble, start very low, say, at 60, for 30 minutes, slowly raise to 62-63 for 20 or 30, then go to 65 or 66, even finish with a dextrinisation rest at 70-72.

 

[MHB]

There is an old but under used mashing method that I have always found interesting.
Mash in around 40oC and ramp to just under 80-oC at a rate of rise ~0.5oC/minute.
Takes you through all the enzyme peaks slowly enough for them to do their thing about as well as they are going to.

These days with a decent PID controller or even just a properly sized element it would be a piece of cake.
Would be a good idea to have a constantly stirred mash of a pumped RIMS/HERMS type system to make sure everything heats up evenly.

Diacetyl rests have always been a bit of a WAFTAM for mine, you only need a DA rest if you have a DA problem, you will only ever have a DA problem if you mismanage your yeast, so for mine the answer isn't a DA rest its better yeast management. Sure if you are making a big Lager do a VDK test and if there is any do a DA. Just remember its a remedial measure not necessarily a standard part of fermentation.
There are some very persistent and often hard to get rid of bacteria that will produce diacetyl they love to imbed in plastic (often the lines to the tap). Choosing lines with Nylon internals will help with control, as its a much smoother surface that is harder for the bacteria to imbed in, they also clean a lot easier.
Mark

PS
yankinoz
See post #2, love a dollar for each time I have said every brewer should have a decent reference thermometer that you can trust and use it to test all your sensors.
Mark

 

[yankinoz]

There is an old but under used mashing method that I have always found interesting.
Mash in around 40oC and ramp to just under 80-oC at a rate of rise ~0.5oC/minute.
Takes you through all the enzyme peaks slowly enough for them to do their thing about as well as they are going to.


PS
yankinoz
See post #2, love a dollar for each time I have said every brewer should have a decent reference thermometer that you can trust and use it to test all your sensors.
Mark

Mark--Good advice, but I BIAB and only use a very good thermometer, calibrated against freezing and boiling. I had doubts about an earlier one in the middle range.

The old method you mention sounds interesting, though the lower temps should not do much in well-converted malts. I'm a fan of Hochkurz mashes, and not just in German styles.

Dan

 

[MHB]

Its funny people talk about Alpha and Beta Amylase, occasionally Glucanase and Protease, but there are 30 odd identified enzymes that have very measurable effects across the mashing temperature range (sic 40-80oC).
A lot of them aren't much use in a standard isothermal or stepped mash, but you see lots of effect in a decoction mash.
Typically a decoction will have a higher recovery of extract, finish at lower FG, taste better... but they take longer and use more energy. Many of the changes are caused by enzymes that we normally ignore getting a chance to have a go. Big collection of tradeoffs, me I got a Braumeister mostly 5 step programed infusion starting at 20oC where I do all my water chemistry, then let it rip.
Not right/wrong just a bunch of choices and choosing a path that gets you there. Mind you knowing what is going on is always a help in planning your process.
Mark

 

[Skillz]

Iam now pretty confident in my process and as the beer has not changed at all over time I am going to go with the theory that I was given 400g of crystal instead of the light Munich.

 

[reddog]

Can you please update us when you make a batch with new malt.

 

[Skillz]

Did a Neipa a few weeks ago, turned out great and is all gone. Only difference is I did an 11litre batch using a corny keg as the fermenter. 8g litre dry hops, no lose of hop aroma of flavour over the month.

 

[Skillz]

I just took this pic of the pale and its 56 days old.
No off flavours that I would say, just overly sweet/caramel.
My mates love it but I'm not a fan, pretty convinced the malts got stuffed up.

 

[frosty3]

Fundamentally doesn't make any sense at all. Don't take offence but I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the thinking that got you to this point. If its something you have read please tell me where I for one would like to know where this is coming from.

Ok you want dryer beer, no problem you can get apparent attenuations >100% with a fairly intensive mash regime.
The two main enzymes Alpha and Beta Amylase aren't the only ones that will be playing a role, there is at least one Protease and a type of Glucanase that can both still be slightly active up to the Beta peak around 62-63oC. They aren't going to be making a huge difference to your beer but might be thinning it out a bit.
Mostly we need to look at the Amylases
About the driest beer you can make would come from something like a 120 minute mash at the beta peak, problem is you would probably have a fair amount of unconverted starch and there is a very good chance that you would have a blue wort (not normal to iodine) you would know because when you start the boil it will foam like a mad thing.
The one thing that may help you is that there is a lot of Alpha Amylase in the wort and as you heat to a boil it will act on the starch, if you are heating fairly slowly (<say 0.5-0.75oC/Minute) it will have time to degrade most of the starch. Wont help with your yield though, that's guarantied to be lower than expected.

Mash at a compromise temperature usually that 65-67oC and you get enough Alpha activity to provide more sites for the beta to act on and its not so hot that the beta is all killed of before it does its work.

Two points that may help.
Once starch is degraded into fermentable sugars, you cant undo that later in the mash. Means if you do a reasonably long cool mash that fermentable sugar will still be in the wort, so a step up in temperature wont mean less fermentable sugars.
Second is that Alpha Amylase can and will make fermentable sugars to. A long mash at Alpha peak will not only degrade all the soluble starch giving a higher yield but will make more both fermentable and non fermentable sugars.
OK the wort in total will be a bit less fermentable but if you aren't making extra dry you really don't want an FG under 1.000

I think you will get more of better beer if you do a step mash. Apart from the fact that there is more extract the hotter your wort is (<80oC) the more fluid it so the faster and cleaner it drains and sparges. The same applies all the way to the boiling point its just that over 80oC its hard to control the extraction of husk tannins.

I suspect that you are flirting with one group of problems to avoid another, the better answer is to understand both and take the benefits of each while ducking the problems they can cause.
Mark

The article linked by WEAL is good
As is this one

Hey Mark.
If I mashed for 10hrs @ 65 while I was at work. Would this explain why my beer finished at 1.004 (OG 1.051) when Brewfather calculated it at 1.012. Because the longer chains got broken down so much from a long mash?

 

[MHB]

I think it just might, The last 6-7 hours probably wouldn't be doing too much but the first 3-4 will dry it out.
Mark