Suggestions For A More Complex Mash

[cpsmusic]

Hi,

So far I've been doing single-step mashes with a batch sparge. I'm interested in trying a more complex mash - either a two-step or a decoction. I'm mashing in an esky.

Just wondering what would be a suitable mash type and schedule. I'm planning on brewing an American Amber Ale so something suited to that style would be good.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[manticle]

What are you hoping to get by making it more complex?

I like step mashing, decocting etc but do it for a reason and not for every beer. Great for german style lagers and hefes and I've played with stepping the sacch rests (low then high) for a few UK bitters and enjoyed the results.

 

[argon]

Could always do a Hoch-Kurz mash:

Mash in -amylase Rest 62 C for 30 min
Infuse to a-amylase Rest 70 C for 30 min

or for added complexity something like this

Mash in Protein Rest 52C for 20min
Infuse to -amylase Rest 63C for 30min
Decoct to a-amylase Rest 72C for 30min
Decoct to mashout 78C for 10min


Not sure it would add all that much to a American Amber, more suitable for wheats and lagers... but if you could be bothered... go for it

 

[Pennywise]

I have to agree, while I am only just starting to get into decocting, from the benefits I've read about it, it wouldn't add much to an American Amber. No harm in giving it a go though so at least if you bugger up along the way then you shouldn't notice to much :lol: . I burnt the crap out of my last decoct

Edit: it was going into a Dunelwiezen so all may not be lost

 

[cpsmusic]

What are you hoping to get by making it more complex?

I like step mashing, decocting etc but do it for a reason and not for every beer. Great for german style lagers and hefes and I've played with stepping the sacch rests (low then high) for a few UK bitters and enjoyed the results.

There are several reasons why I'd like to try this - curiosity, to learn to control my equipment better, to see if it makes a difference to the end product, because multi-steps/decoctions are described in How To Brew, etc.

 

[Bribie G]

Try a Hochkurz infusion mash, as suggested, for more maltiness (allegedly )

 

[cpsmusic]

Could always do a Hoch-Kurz mash:

Mash in -amylase Rest 62 C for 30 min
Infuse to a-amylase Rest 70 C for 30 min

or for added complexity something like this

Mash in Protein Rest 52C for 20min
Infuse to -amylase Rest 63C for 30min
Decoct to a-amylase Rest 72C for 30min
Decoct to mashout 78C for 10min


Not sure it would add all that much to a American Amber, more suitable for wheats and lagers... but if you could be bothered... go for it

This sounds like the sort of thing I'm interested in. I plan on doing one batch with a single-step and then another using the Hoch-Kurz method.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[manticle]

There are several reasons why I'd like to try this - curiosity, to learn to control my equipment better, to see if it makes a difference to the end product, because multi-steps/decoctions are described in How To Brew, etc.

The reason I ask is because knowing what your aim is will help suggest a schedule. Do you want melanoiden flavours from a thick decoction mash?

Do you want a malty fullbodied beer that still attenuates well and finishes dry?

Do you want to see if protein rests have any effect on head retention with modified malts?

Do you want to get clove into a wheat beer?

Not wanting to discourage you from having a crack - just trying to clarify the aims so the question can be answered better.

I'd also try it on a different beer first - use traditional methods with a traditional beer to see what it does - then expand into other beers less traditional but where you see a benefit. Make a hefe or a malty german style lager then if you think you'd like that quality in your IPA or Am. Amber then try it out on those.

 

[dougsbrew]

in reference to protein rest being mentioned, can this be done in an esky.
i imagine youd need a really sticky mash and numerous litres of boiling water to get it up to 65*c?

 

[Pennywise]

No issue as long as you have the room in the tun, could boil up the few ltrs you need in a separate pot, well maybe not boil but bring ip to desired temp

 

[manticle]

There is an article here about how to calculate strike temps: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

You can use it to calculate any water additions for step mashing too. Scroll to bottom of article.

I believe beersmith will do the same calcs for you but I'm not a BS user so can't tell you how.

 

[cpsmusic]

The reason I ask is because knowing what your aim is will help suggest a schedule. Do you want melanoiden flavours from a thick decoction mash?

Do you want a malty fullbodied beer that still attenuates well and finishes dry?

Do you want to see if protein rests have any effect on head retention with modified malts?

Do you want to get clove into a wheat beer?

Not wanting to discourage you from having a crack - just trying to clarify the aims so the question can be answered better.

I'd also try it on a different beer first - use traditional methods with a traditional beer to see what it does - then expand into other beers less traditional but where you see a benefit. Make a hefe or a malty german style lager then if you think you'd like that quality in your IPA or Am. Amber then try it out on those.

At the moment I'm interested in malt-driven ale sty;es so your first two points are probably what interest me most. One thing that's not really clear from How To Brew is why you would choose multi-step/decoction mashes for particular styles and what differences they make.

What are some sources that would explain this better?

 

[manticle]

There's some info in the recent mashout decoction thread which includes links.

Look up 'decoction braukaiser' or 'decoction mashing braukaiser' on google. The braukaiser site has loads of great info about traditional german methods and the decoction page includes a description of hoch-kurz mashing. Hochkurz to me is probably the place to start - malty, full bodied, well attenuated but dry finish (as suggested by Bribie but in my experience I notice the difference).

Decoctions and multi steps initially came about because they were necessary - barley has been bred and malted in a way that renders it unnecessary. However old methods can still affect flavour and so on and are definitely worth trying out. Just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it is uninteresting.

 

[dougsbrew]

There is an article here about how to calculate strike temps: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

You can use it to calculate any water additions for step mashing too. Scroll to bottom of article.

I believe beersmith will do the same calcs for you but I'm not a BS user so can't tell you how.

i checked out this calc and had a play with it, but couldnt work out how to do step up.
what would be the minimum litres to kg grain for effective protein rest.
im thinking 6 litres to 4kg grain. if at 52c how much water at 98c would you need to get to 65c?

 

[manticle]

Depending on how many rests you want to do using just boiling waterand how many with decoctions or other kind of applied eat, the answer will be different.

Be warned - the following is not brewing science - it is a summary of how I have done things and will do until someone gives me better advice. This has worked for me several times.

Let's imagine you want to do a short protein rest then add hot water to get the main mash from low 60s beta amylase rest to high 60s/low 70s for alpha-amylase rest. I normally use 2.5:1 Liquor to grain ratio. In the case of a lager I might push that up to 3 (there's a reason for the difference but I've currently forgotten).

Calculate how much water at what temp you need to get to 55 using that calc. Go with a liquor ratio of 2:1 instead of 2.5:1

Then calculate how much water at what temp to get to 65 from 55. Shouldn't be too much although an immersion element helps a lot if you miss by a couple of degrees. Rest there, then calc how much hot water to get to 69.

You will very likely end up with a similar amount of liquid in the tun than if you just did single infusion.

If decocting you are putting the same volume (roughly) back in so the only thing needed there is to add slowly and measure temp so you don't get too hot.

Again - just how I've done it in my haphazard way with good results.

It's a rough guide because it's geared towards strike temp and once you step up and there's already soaked grain in the tun, the grain weight is different. However to give you an example - if I type 5 kg of grain into the weight and add 4 litres of water to get to 69 degree from 63, I get a recommendation of 72 degrees for my 4 L of water. If I add the same values except make the weight 10kg I get a value of 75 degree. If you can adjust mash temp in the first place (hot/cold water) then you can adjust these temps too as needed.

Hope it makes sense - beersmith is probably far less complicated and more accurate but I often do things in roundabout ways.

 

[DKS]

Does a more complex mash mean a more complex beer? It seems this is where it all starts for that really special beer.

I've had notes made on judging forms suggesting " Beer needs to be more complex" or "beer one dimentional"
Does this all stem from the mash? ,
or from ingredients in the mash ie Many different grains and/or rest schedules or hop additions for that matter
I've asked this before but the term seems a bit ambiguous and frankly seems like a get out of jail free card to play when other critical terms don't fit.

Yeh, I know its home brew. Just askin.
Daz

 

[manticle]

Complicating recipes and processes doesn't necessarily result in complex beer.

You can make a superb English bitter with loads of complexity using pale malt (good marris otter) single hop, judiciously added and some decent crystal malt. A good UK yeast well treated, single infusion mash (maybe high 60s but long mash) and a patient fermentation schedule.

Even decocting and step mashing can be done simply with a simple grist and simple hop schedule (look at pilsner urquell).