Stir plate speed

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RobjF

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Hey guys.
Just bought a new digital stir plate to make my yeast starters a little easier. Having never used one before what sort of speed should I be looking for. Do I need to create a large vortex or is just spinning the liquid enough.
Cheers rob.
 
Wrote to wyeast about this cause I was curious about building one with rpm control. Guy said 150 - 200 rpm. Which surprised me cause I'm guessing is nowhere near the vortex most people here seem to like. Of course, a vortex looks cooler.
 
lael said:
Wrote to wyeast about this cause I was curious about building one with rpm control. Guy said 150 - 200 rpm. Which surprised me cause I'm guessing is nowhere near the vortex most people here seem to like. Of course, a vortex looks cooler.
You know what to do.

If you think about it, you do just want to keep yeasties in suspension as even with minimal turnover the CO2 will get out and O2 back in. I have noticed that with a starter of 2.5-3L, I do have it going at a higher speed than with only 500-1000mL.
 
brewtas said:
That's what I thought but Kai Troester did an experiment on stir speed and it seems that speed makes a significant difference to yeast growth.
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/
Hmmm, nice experiment - but ... the high speed option seems to give about 25% faster growth and since it's talking about growth rate speed, so what - just keep the starter on the stirplate a bit longer and you can reach the same amount of yeast grown eventually.

Myself I like using a moderate speed - less chance of throwing the stirbar and just can't imagine making the yeasties live in a cyclone is good for them :lol:
 
Hmmm, nice experiment - but ... the high speed option seems to give about 25% faster growth and since it's talking about growth rate speed


That's not how I read it. From the blog post:

"This experiment did show a strong correlation between stir speed and yeast growth. The slower the stir speed was the less yeast was grown per initial gram of extract."

It reads to me like an expression of how many cells grow given a certain amount of extract. It makes sense too, a shaken starter grows more cells than one that's still and a stir plate starter grows more cells than a shaken one.
 
Brewtas you are right. The graph clearly shows significantly larger yeast growth the faster the starter is stirred. The fastest speed grew almost twice as much yeast as the slowest speed.
 
Perhaps I should start another thread for this, but it's at least a bit related. I'm considering Braukaiser's experiments with stirplate speed, his experiments about giving a starter more or less access to air, and his ones about yeast viability as compared to yeast growth. Would it make sense to oxygenate a starter wort in an attempt to increase the health of the yeast you get? Might be handy for high-SG fermentations.
 
I'll say it's hard to specify a speed to run your stir plate, depends on the amount of liquid, surface area, stir bar size and your stir plate itself.
 
I just found this thread while searching for info on stir plate speeds because I just finished building mine. :)


slash22000 said:
Brewtas you are right. The graph clearly shows significantly larger yeast growth the faster the starter is stirred. The fastest speed grew almost twice as much yeast as the slowest speed.
Judging from the above quote, it seems people don't quite know how to read the plot in the braukaiser article. The error bars (atcually, in this case they're uncertainty bars) for the medium speed and the two high speed cases overlap. This means that due to the uncertainties involved you can't actually say that the values are different at all, let alone a dignificant difference.

If anyone has a DO meter, it'd be great to determine if a higher stir speed results in more DO. I suspect that at a certain point it won't make any difference because although the liquid would get turned over more often, the contact time would be less. Oxygen doesn't dissolve instantly so I think contact time is a factor.

These things make me think the "a dimple is enough" idea is probably right. In any case, a dimple on my stir plate is going to be better than shaking the old juice bottle. :)
 
verysupple said:
The error bars (atcually, in this case they're uncertainty bars) for the medium speed and the two high speed cases overlap. This means that due to the uncertainties involved you can't actually say that the values are different at all, let alone a dignificant difference.
He doesn't indicate whether the whiskers represent standard deviation, confidence intervals, range or some other measure of variation. If they are 95% confidence intervals (or uncertainty bar as you suggest), you will note the whiskers do not overlap the box (or mean), so following your logic they may well be statistically significant. However I doubt the study was statistically powered, so I wouldn't draw a statistical conclusion, but I think the trend is pretty clear that growths increases with speed.
 
I've read lots of Kai's work and in yeast counting experiments his uncertainty bars come from the uncertainty in counting the cells* - which is by far the largest source of uncertainty in these experiments. So in this case, the uncertainty bars mean that he is absolutely certain that the real value lies somewhere between the upper and lower bars. They mean nothing more and nothing less. The whole point of uncertainty bars is that you really don't know where the data point lies, but you do know the bounds in which it will lie. So in this case, my statement about the uncertainty bars overlapping is correct (unless Kai comes along and tells us that in this case his uncertainty bars represent something different to all his other yeast growth experiments).

Also, when I said "significant difference" I didn't say, or mean, statistically significant.

* This uncertainty is calculated from the variation in cell denisty observed in different grid squares on the haemocytometer. So in a way it is a sort of statistcal analysis, but a basic one, and the bars represent the analogy of 100 % confidence interval.

EDIT: I will concede that it's quite likely that the real value for high speed is higher than that for medium speed, but this data doesn't show that conclusively.
 
Black n Tan said:
... so I wouldn't draw a statistical conclusion, but I think the trend is pretty clear that growths increases with speed.
I'd agree - it's not ironclad, triplicated experimental data; however the differences are enough for me to pretty happy with the trend being shown. Having said that, it'd be nice if he or someone else repeated some of his experiments just to confirm his findings. I guess the findings also stack up well with (generally extensively evidenced) microbiological and biochemical theory, so it helps imply the credibility of his findings.

It'd be nice if he could re-perform this stir-speed test combined with his high gravity "quality of yeast" experiment - where he looked at the speed of fermentation, survival of yeast, and the extent of final attenuation (though not taste-tested) compared across different types of O2 exposure. Interestingly a cotton ball (representing a "breathable" stopper) was found to achieve better final attenuation than both foil wrapping or continuously bubbled air - his suggestion was that a very good but slightly impaired gas exchange level may have encouraged the yeast to be more resilient and handle the fermentation process better. So a similar phenomenon could easily apply here. Very interesting.

.... maybe i need to get a stir plate ... ;)
 

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