Sour Taste

[Salt]

Hey guys, sorry for the long post, but Im a bit lost for an answer and very frustrated.

Just have a question over possible infection. I am just about to bottle my latest brew, Dr Smurto's Golden Ale, and have tasted it when taking my final FG sample. It has a very sour taste, which is much more than being bitter. I find it unpleasant, while my father who I brew with just thinks its bitter - I like his optimism. Im wondering if its slightly infected. My last brew tasted outstanding out of the Ferm.

This would appear to be my second batch that has gone this way in three brews. WTF am I doing wrong. My last batch was Neills Centenarillo, which came out a beaut and I dont think im doing much different between brews.

I am careful with sanitizing and cleaning, so dont think its an issue here.

The First brew that was undrinkable and sour, I was a rookie and tried to do too many things with little knowledge, so I wrote that one off as a learning curve.

From then, I have spent hours and hours reading and educating myself - many nites on this site!

As I said, the next brew we did came out so good, I drank my share only after being in the bottle for 3 weeks.

So back on to this brew...Im still going to bottle it to see if its salvageable (not hopeful however).

Both brews that appear to have failed have seen me adding speciality grains, the Centenarillo that worked didnt.
Could I be doing something wrong here?
For this brew I steeped the crushed grain (250g Caramel Pilser Malt) at 65degC for 30mins, then used this Liquor for my boil. So boiled the liquor added a tin of Coopers Wheat Malt Extract and did my Hop additions over 15mins as per recipe.

Added to fermenter and topped up with Filtered Tap Water. Put the lid on and let it cool for about 6hrs before pitching the yeast. Could it have gotten oxidized here? The lid was on, airlock in and with water in it. Lifted the lid once it had cooled and chucked in the satchet of US-05.


Please help...Two out of Three brews bad, aint a good record, and they are costing me about $60NZ each time. Expensive fertilizer.

Where can I be getting an infection? With a sour taste and beer being cloudy, what kind of infection could this be?

PLEASE HELP!

 

[jbowers]

What are you sanitising and cleaning with? It sounds like an infection. A golden ale recipe shouldn't be sour, nor really that bitter...

 

[Lodan]

PLEASE HELP!

RDWHAHB :icon_cheers:

Chances are that the beer isn't infected, perhaps it is just a little too bitter for your taste at the moment. If it tasted foul i think you would have a real problem

Can you post a picture of the top of the brew?
This is normally a location which would show signs of an infection

You have done a couple of things in less than ideal ways.

The wort should be cooled or allowed to cool before you transfer it into the fermenter. This prevents an oxidative effect occuring which can lead to some off-flavours in the beer

You should not aerate when the wort is hot, or even warm. Aeration of hot wort will cause the oxygen to chemically bind to various wort compounds. Over time, these compounds will break down, freeing atomic oxygen back into the beer where it can oxidize the alcohols and hop compounds producing off-flavors and aromas like wet cardboard or sherry-like flavors. The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing hot wort oxidation is 80F.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html

Also, can you confirm the temperature at which you pitched the yeast and fermented?
Pitching and fermenting at higher than normal temp can introduce some cidery flavours (so i have read).

One other thing, did you strain the hops out of the hot liquor before adding to the fermenter?
If no and if there are still some hop debris floating you might have actually tasted/swallowed some when trying the beer. These debris are excessively bitter.

 

[Salt]

I use generic pink powdered steriliser from LHBS. Says its a chlorinated cleaner steriliser suitable for all brewing equipment. Its a soak and rinse type.

Its the K&B version of Dr Smurtos Golden Ale, so uses a pre-hopped kit (Coopers Sparkling Ale) and a can of Coopers Wheat.

As I said, i didnt do anything different than what I did for the Centenarillo Ale, which was such a good drop. (not comparing recipes, just my failed attempts).

Cheers,

 

[jbowers]

The Centarillo ale is more bitter than smurtos, I believe.

If it genuinely is 'sour' and not something else that is suggested above then I would think your cleaning and sanitising regime is to blame. Generally, just soak with some kind of cleaning agent - napysan or similar things with a good bit of sodium per-carbonate work well. Rinse that all off well. When it's time to use, it's important to use a no-rinse sanitiser like starsan. When you rinse a sanitiser off you are effectively removing all the hard work of sanitising you just did by exposing it again to whatever bacteria might be in your water. A no rinse sanitiser avoids this...

 

[Salt]

Also, can you confirm the temperature at which you pitched the yeast and fermented?
Pitching and fermenting at higher than normal temp can introduce some cidery flavours (so i have read).

Pitched at around 24deg, and fermented at 18 deg - kept stable, dropped a bit lower over nite. Left for two weeks in primary. About to bottle now.

One other thing, did you strain the hops out of the hot liquor before adding to the fermenter?
If no and if there are still some hop debris floating you might have actually tasted/swallowed some when trying the beer. These debris are excessively bitter.

Nope, didnt strain the hops...when I took the sample, I would suggest that it contained a lot of Hops and yeast sediments, but again when I tasted my last brew out of the tap from the ferm, it was great.


Dont have a camera on me, but the top has a thin white foam on it with bubble holes...presumed this is the left over krausen...should this of cleared however?

 

[Salt]

The Centarillo ale is more bitter than smurtos, I believe.

If it genuinely is 'sour' and not something else that is suggested above then I would think your cleaning and sanitising regime is to blame. Generally, just soak with some kind of cleaning agent - napysan or similar things with a good bit of sodium per-carbonate work well. Rinse that all off well. When it's time to use, it's important to use a no-rinse sanitiser like starsan. When you rinse a sanitiser off you are effectively removing all the hard work of sanitising you just did by exposing it again to whatever bacteria might be in your water. A no rinse sanitiser avoids this...

Yeah, judging by the Hops, I would have thought this one would be more mellower...

Ok, will try the no rinse sanitizer next....

Going to bottle this one, give the ferm a good clean - sanitize and will pick up some no rinse when I get my DME for my Toucan Stout Im going to put down tonite.

Cheers for all the quick replies....
Salt.

 

[DUANNE]

a good investment would be some pbw for cleaning, homebrand napisan is a good substitute. wash with this thoroughly and rinse clean with hot water. for sanitation use either starsan or iodophor wich are both no rinse products. 2 things i dont like about that pink stuff are you dont want chlorine near your brew it can cause off flavours and if you rinse after sanitation then you are just unsanitising at the same time. all the product i mentioned work a lot better and are easily availble from the sponsors at the top of the page.
they also work out quite economical in the long run, especialy if you save from tipping out expensive brew onto the lawn.

 

[Salt]

Top view of fermenter...

Hows it look???

 

[Deebo]

Top view of fermenter...
Hows it look???

Look pretty normal to me.

I think the problem lies with letting it sit in the fermenter for 6 hours before pitching the yeast (any nasties that have managed to make it in have a head start on the yeast by 6 hours)

I would try to cool the pot you boiled in a bit quicker by putting it in the sink and running cold water around it (maybe some frozen ice blocks also)

 

[Amber Fluid]

Look pretty normal to me.

I think the problem lies with letting it sit in the fermenter for 6 hours before pitching the yeast (any nasties that have managed to make it in have a head start on the yeast by 6 hours)

I would try to cool the pot you boiled in a bit quicker by putting it in the sink and running cold water around it (maybe some frozen ice blocks also)

+1

I was going to say the same thing.

 

[ekul]

If i were you i would make a few changes.

First of all, if brews are costing you $60 a pop go and buy one of those fresh wort kits, they're around $50. This serves two purposes, you get some sweet beer AND a 20L cube.

Next, the day before your brewday get the amount of 'top up' water and boil it for 10mins, this will kill anything nasty (bacteria) in the water (are you on tank water?). While still hot, siphon this into the cube that came with your cleaned fresh wort kit and seal it up. Let this cool for a bit and then put it in a fridge if you can. If you're in NZ, maybe put it outside to cool (its really cold over there isn't it?).

Now, order some iodophor or starsan and a plastic spray bottle. Wash all your eqipment in napisan, rinse and store. Just before you use the brew equipment spray with iodophor. Don't rinse the sanitisor off, its protects your brew from nasties.

Do your brew in your brew pot and add all your ingredients. Fill your fermenter with the cooled boiled water (hopefully its sitting at around 4C or less) and then add the wort from you boil pot. Aerate with a sanitised spoon. Your brew should be sitting at 18C, pitch us05, seal with gladwrap and keep at 17-20C.

Doing all this you should end up with a tasty, uninfected brew. Good luck mate

 

[Salt]

Look pretty normal to me.

I think the problem lies with letting it sit in the fermenter for 6 hours before pitching the yeast (any nasties that have managed to make it in have a head start on the yeast by 6 hours)

I would try to cool the pot you boiled in a bit quicker by putting it in the sink and running cold water around it (maybe some frozen ice blocks also)

Thanks mate, I think you might be right...thinking back now, first one that spoiled was the same, waiting to pitch yeast at correct temp...Whilst the lid was on etc, its still got a good 15cm of space at the top, which has got air in it and its not being forced out by the yeast getting stuck in and chomping away.

I will now cool always...Cheers

 

[gjn200]

Look pretty normal to me.

I think the problem lies with letting it sit in the fermenter for 6 hours before pitching the yeast (any nasties that have managed to make it in have a head start on the yeast by 6 hours)

I would try to cool the pot you boiled in a bit quicker by putting it in the sink and running cold water around it (maybe some frozen ice blocks also)

-1

After 2 weeks in the fermenter that krausen/whatever it is should all be gone.

 

[McFeast]

Thanks mate, I think you might be right...thinking back now, first one that spoiled was the same, waiting to pitch yeast at correct temp...Whilst the lid was on etc, its still got a good 15cm of space at the top, which has got air in it and its not being forced out by the yeast getting stuck in and chomping away.

I will now cool always...Cheers

Let us know how you get on with you next brew following these techniques.

 

[Lodan]

Looks to be alot of hop debris still suspended in the beer

 

[Salt]

-1

After 2 weeks in the fermenter that krausen/whatever it is should all be gone.

From memory, my last brew was pretty 'clean' on top...

Im not that hopeful for this one even though I've just bottled it.

Let us know how you get on with you next brew following these techniques.

Followed up with bottling this one by putting down a Toucan Stout...

Cooled the wort down in the sink with some slicker packs and got it down to about 40degC, once topped up in the ferm, pitched both packets of kit yeast at around 22degC. So no waiting around for this one....hopefully it helps.

Cheers!