So This Is Christmas
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jayandcath
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darrell.wallace
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I am sure that there is contradictory evidence for what you do in your brewery and yet because it works for you, it still happens that way. People are the same about their faith. LET THEM BE.
The question from Jase was not whether or not a "higher power" existed or if faith was to be believed it was asking what you see christmas to be. If he wanted an outright debate as to the existance of a God then he would have said who believes.
On topic.... Christmas is a time when I get 5 weeks or so off school to recharge the batteries, visit some family and friends and spend an awefu lot of time with my kids. Who cares if i have to buy a few presents for my family, i dont mind that.
Jase71
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QUOTE: Jase, I applaud you for sticking to your principles and not being sucked along into something you have no interest in just because everyone else is doing it.
Thank you. That is a very noble statement that reflects your appreciation outside of the small mindedness that often prevails amongst western culture.
QUOTE: I also despise the fact that I, along with what I'm sure is a generous sample of the population, have to endure everyone's cheery outlook and "Merry Christmas's" when for the rest of the year they are miserable gits.
Exactly - and to extend upon that, how many of you give gifts for loved ones/good mates/respected work colleagues out of the blue ? I'm not talking birthdays or christmas here, but totally off the cuff because you respect them as people in your life ? I do so often, not because a time of the year dictates that I should do so. It can be as small as something like burning complete discographies of music onto DVD for a friend with an i-pod or a $3 cupcake for the receptionist who's having a bad day, or maybe seeing something retail in one's travels that you say to yourself "I'll bet Joe/Jane will love that, I'll get it for them". Or even picking up on a friend who's feeling a bit blue so you shout them out for dinner. In my opinion (OK?), the whole christmassy 'time for giving' is a crock of **** if you don't practice the movements just as often throughout the year.
QUOTE: SO.. enjoy it in your own way and try not to let it get to you, and in the spirit of Christmas practice a little tolerance for those who may be different.
"Those that are different" are (by sheer numbers) generally considered kooks. The whole auto-response of 'bah humbug' is probably the only thing that gets to me, for it's a silly statement borne from Dickens (yes, *gasp* a book!) which is a fictional tale. In fact, the term 'humbug', to the best of my knowledge) is translated as 'a hoax'. So therefore it might be better used towards those who do actually celebrate christmas without having a christian belief structure - and not those who write the day off.
Apologies to Katie over at the last thread when I said "stupid comment" - it was purely about the words, not directed at the person who stated them.
QUOTE: My thoughts also, call me a hypocrite but your views are similar to mine with Halloween, I downright refuse to celebrate that as amongst other things has no bearing on our history and/or beliefs
You're 100% correct - but neither does christmas. More on that in a moment......
QUOTE: This should be in off topic with such question Jase.
Disagree. I thought long and hard about the placement of this thread, Matti. It was posted here because the publicly posted definition of this subforum includes the words "General Chit-Chat". AND it's called "The Pub" - so I like to think that any discussions taking place here are done so by contributors that would just as soon have the same conversations in a face-to-face capacity.
Add to that the observation thatnew posts in "The Pub" appear in the latest threads box, whilst 'off-topic' does not. Being a seasonal discussion, isn't it better that more people get a chance to enter into this dialogue?
QUOTE: How about just taking advantage of the opportunity to be around those you care about for a bit of a break from work? That's what I do, I'm not religious in the slightest.
Yea, I take the opportunity for the time off - reluctantly. For me this break is much needed but without pay, because I'd already planned an O/S holiday in March 2009 and only have enough leave to cover that - the closing of my workplace was something I didnt anticipate! Anyway, I don'r begrudge the forced holiday, for it gives me time to get into some projects that have been on the backburner.
QUOTE: I think most public holidays are just commercially bastardised. The only people that I frown upon are those that live in this great country and dont celebrate/respect ANZAC day and Australia Day. But that is another story.
Yea, that is another story. One that Pollux has re-defined. But let's keep that discussion for April '09 (so I get a chance to become even less popular because of my opinions all over again
)
QUOTE: ......robs the value of family and friends, like you need to buy them off with gifts to make them happy. Kinda sad, I think sometimes.
Ayup. "Need to buy them gifts" takes over from 'want to buy them gifts". See earlier paragraph.
QUOTE: Halloween might be fun for kids and the like, but it never happened with me as a kid. Its a stricly American tradition...I'm hazy on the meaning behind it but I think I got the gist of it through an episode of The Simpsons. Pagan witch appeasal or something? Anywho...yeah.
Indeed - WTF is Australian Halloween? ... when I was young it was unheard of, but the past few years I've heard murmers that this is a done thing in many suburbs now. It's just another tradition that is not indigenous to our society, but through movies/media etc there's now yet another USA-centric habit that people want to embrace.
Pagan Witch is a bit of an ill-informed oxymoron, but I can see how it's perceived as such. The concept of Halloween is a Gaelic (or maybe Celtic, I'm no theological historian) tradition that celebrates the cycles of the earth & the elements which dictated agriculture, one of several such festivals that recognised the very tangible elements of nature, and paid respect to 'the gods' (I use that term loosely in this context) for the variations between the winter solstic & the equinox's (equinii?) All of which are aspects that we can observe to this day, without any book of messengers to skew the facts. How it became 'trick or treating' is not something I know - but anyway they are, to the best of my understanding, the origins of Halloween.
*Shock* Horror* - Christmas as per the (roundabout) day that we know it as, being the 25th December, was a 'Pagan' festival celebrating the turning of the sun. It actually bears no real anniversary to the birth of Jesus at all - in fact if the statements in the bible are to be observed, particularly the placement of stars & planets (three wise men), thne the astronomically-minded historians would place his birth at around September, a full three months before the modern acceptance of christmas.
I may have some specifics wrong, and I'm the first to be corrected on dates/lunar cycles, but essentially the modern adaption of christmas based on the birth of Jesus, and the subsequent holiday that has ensued, is based on incorrect information. Humbug, if you will.
QUOTE: Jesus is in the same category as the easter bunny and batman for me..... made up.
Here's a curveball - I actually believe that a man that they call Jesus existed ! A great chap who excelled in being a bloke who was dependable, honest & giving. In saying so, I have met a couple of people in my life that are also truly noble within themselve, and would probably give a kidney to someone close who needed it. Now I'm not saying that I follow some purist angle of christianity, that in itself is absurd, but there are otheres, even in our lifetime, that show a trueness to their fellow man, and would never do wrong of another. They aren't 'the messiah/god's messenger/the prophet' but they ultimatly give more to humankind than they take, and don't have a precept of 'doing god's work'.
Larry, I'm glad you haven't mentioned the Tooth Fairy in your list of great myths, because I'd be very upset - Ive got a few that I'm hoping to cash in on very soon.
QUOTE: My first and last thoughts on some of the above......my Missus works for Qld Health, has done for 8 years, prev. to that, 19 years in the private sector. Seeing impending death and death itself is a regular thing in her game. From what she tells me,an awful lot of people that believed in nothing but themselves have a change of heart when they see the old bloke with the reaping hook looking over their shoulder.
Just something to think about, and like I said, my first and last post on it....just stating a fact.
Fact eh... That these people have an epiphany ? I won't discount you or your missis on that, but we're talking about the people that are facing death, not some glorious message from the skies. While many people lapse in their beliefs that a god might exit, there's always a latent psychological element within them that has never truly dismissed the cultural assumption, and it stays in the recesses until such a time when they need to appeal, perhaps as a last resort. It's not some godly intervention, it's a final attempt to save themselves with the fables of their past. What you don't hear about is those on their death-bed that get visited by groups of missionaries who, for their own peace of mind, attempt to show the soon-to-be-deregistered patient how they can repent, beleive, and accept the lord in their final passage, only to be told to get the heck out and let a man die in peace. To many of these do-good brethren, 'saving' a dying soul is a badge of honour that they can high-note themselves on at the next fundamentalist team-meeting. Sure, the poor heathen chap died, but we made sure he caught the express travellator straight up to god's loungeroom via our last-breath conversion interrogation.
And that sick, sad methodology of some missionaries is also fact.
EDIT: For the purposes of formatting
Thank you. That is a very noble statement that reflects your appreciation outside of the small mindedness that often prevails amongst western culture.
QUOTE: I also despise the fact that I, along with what I'm sure is a generous sample of the population, have to endure everyone's cheery outlook and "Merry Christmas's" when for the rest of the year they are miserable gits.
Exactly - and to extend upon that, how many of you give gifts for loved ones/good mates/respected work colleagues out of the blue ? I'm not talking birthdays or christmas here, but totally off the cuff because you respect them as people in your life ? I do so often, not because a time of the year dictates that I should do so. It can be as small as something like burning complete discographies of music onto DVD for a friend with an i-pod or a $3 cupcake for the receptionist who's having a bad day, or maybe seeing something retail in one's travels that you say to yourself "I'll bet Joe/Jane will love that, I'll get it for them". Or even picking up on a friend who's feeling a bit blue so you shout them out for dinner. In my opinion (OK?), the whole christmassy 'time for giving' is a crock of **** if you don't practice the movements just as often throughout the year.
QUOTE: SO.. enjoy it in your own way and try not to let it get to you, and in the spirit of Christmas practice a little tolerance for those who may be different.
"Those that are different" are (by sheer numbers) generally considered kooks. The whole auto-response of 'bah humbug' is probably the only thing that gets to me, for it's a silly statement borne from Dickens (yes, *gasp* a book!) which is a fictional tale. In fact, the term 'humbug', to the best of my knowledge) is translated as 'a hoax'. So therefore it might be better used towards those who do actually celebrate christmas without having a christian belief structure - and not those who write the day off.
Apologies to Katie over at the last thread when I said "stupid comment" - it was purely about the words, not directed at the person who stated them.
QUOTE: My thoughts also, call me a hypocrite but your views are similar to mine with Halloween, I downright refuse to celebrate that as amongst other things has no bearing on our history and/or beliefs
You're 100% correct - but neither does christmas. More on that in a moment......
QUOTE: This should be in off topic with such question Jase.
Disagree. I thought long and hard about the placement of this thread, Matti. It was posted here because the publicly posted definition of this subforum includes the words "General Chit-Chat". AND it's called "The Pub" - so I like to think that any discussions taking place here are done so by contributors that would just as soon have the same conversations in a face-to-face capacity.
Add to that the observation thatnew posts in "The Pub" appear in the latest threads box, whilst 'off-topic' does not. Being a seasonal discussion, isn't it better that more people get a chance to enter into this dialogue?
QUOTE: How about just taking advantage of the opportunity to be around those you care about for a bit of a break from work? That's what I do, I'm not religious in the slightest.
Yea, I take the opportunity for the time off - reluctantly. For me this break is much needed but without pay, because I'd already planned an O/S holiday in March 2009 and only have enough leave to cover that - the closing of my workplace was something I didnt anticipate! Anyway, I don'r begrudge the forced holiday, for it gives me time to get into some projects that have been on the backburner.
QUOTE: I think most public holidays are just commercially bastardised. The only people that I frown upon are those that live in this great country and dont celebrate/respect ANZAC day and Australia Day. But that is another story.
Yea, that is another story. One that Pollux has re-defined. But let's keep that discussion for April '09 (so I get a chance to become even less popular because of my opinions all over again
)QUOTE: ......robs the value of family and friends, like you need to buy them off with gifts to make them happy. Kinda sad, I think sometimes.
Ayup. "Need to buy them gifts" takes over from 'want to buy them gifts". See earlier paragraph.
QUOTE: Halloween might be fun for kids and the like, but it never happened with me as a kid. Its a stricly American tradition...I'm hazy on the meaning behind it but I think I got the gist of it through an episode of The Simpsons. Pagan witch appeasal or something? Anywho...yeah.
Indeed - WTF is Australian Halloween? ... when I was young it was unheard of, but the past few years I've heard murmers that this is a done thing in many suburbs now. It's just another tradition that is not indigenous to our society, but through movies/media etc there's now yet another USA-centric habit that people want to embrace.
Pagan Witch is a bit of an ill-informed oxymoron, but I can see how it's perceived as such. The concept of Halloween is a Gaelic (or maybe Celtic, I'm no theological historian) tradition that celebrates the cycles of the earth & the elements which dictated agriculture, one of several such festivals that recognised the very tangible elements of nature, and paid respect to 'the gods' (I use that term loosely in this context) for the variations between the winter solstic & the equinox's (equinii?) All of which are aspects that we can observe to this day, without any book of messengers to skew the facts. How it became 'trick or treating' is not something I know - but anyway they are, to the best of my understanding, the origins of Halloween.
*Shock* Horror* - Christmas as per the (roundabout) day that we know it as, being the 25th December, was a 'Pagan' festival celebrating the turning of the sun. It actually bears no real anniversary to the birth of Jesus at all - in fact if the statements in the bible are to be observed, particularly the placement of stars & planets (three wise men), thne the astronomically-minded historians would place his birth at around September, a full three months before the modern acceptance of christmas.
I may have some specifics wrong, and I'm the first to be corrected on dates/lunar cycles, but essentially the modern adaption of christmas based on the birth of Jesus, and the subsequent holiday that has ensued, is based on incorrect information. Humbug, if you will.
QUOTE: Jesus is in the same category as the easter bunny and batman for me..... made up.
Here's a curveball - I actually believe that a man that they call Jesus existed ! A great chap who excelled in being a bloke who was dependable, honest & giving. In saying so, I have met a couple of people in my life that are also truly noble within themselve, and would probably give a kidney to someone close who needed it. Now I'm not saying that I follow some purist angle of christianity, that in itself is absurd, but there are otheres, even in our lifetime, that show a trueness to their fellow man, and would never do wrong of another. They aren't 'the messiah/god's messenger/the prophet' but they ultimatly give more to humankind than they take, and don't have a precept of 'doing god's work'.
Larry, I'm glad you haven't mentioned the Tooth Fairy in your list of great myths, because I'd be very upset - Ive got a few that I'm hoping to cash in on very soon.
QUOTE: My first and last thoughts on some of the above......my Missus works for Qld Health, has done for 8 years, prev. to that, 19 years in the private sector. Seeing impending death and death itself is a regular thing in her game. From what she tells me,an awful lot of people that believed in nothing but themselves have a change of heart when they see the old bloke with the reaping hook looking over their shoulder.
Just something to think about, and like I said, my first and last post on it....just stating a fact.
Fact eh... That these people have an epiphany ? I won't discount you or your missis on that, but we're talking about the people that are facing death, not some glorious message from the skies. While many people lapse in their beliefs that a god might exit, there's always a latent psychological element within them that has never truly dismissed the cultural assumption, and it stays in the recesses until such a time when they need to appeal, perhaps as a last resort. It's not some godly intervention, it's a final attempt to save themselves with the fables of their past. What you don't hear about is those on their death-bed that get visited by groups of missionaries who, for their own peace of mind, attempt to show the soon-to-be-deregistered patient how they can repent, beleive, and accept the lord in their final passage, only to be told to get the heck out and let a man die in peace. To many of these do-good brethren, 'saving' a dying soul is a badge of honour that they can high-note themselves on at the next fundamentalist team-meeting. Sure, the poor heathen chap died, but we made sure he caught the express travellator straight up to god's loungeroom via our last-breath conversion interrogation.
And that sick, sad methodology of some missionaries is also fact.
EDIT: For the purposes of formatting
deebee
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I don't reckon that is its modern interpretation at all. It's a cultural event that roughly means peace on earth and goodwill to all. And I can live with that.
The festival we call Christmas is not Christian at all. It evolved out of European pagan celebrations of the winter solstice, after which the days started to get longer. It had such huge significance to the locals that missionaries couldn't kill it as a cultural event so they gave it a Christian name and pretended that Jesus was born then (i.e. Christians hijacked it).
Who believes in the virgin birth? Most biblical scholars will point out that there was no census in Rome at any time that could coincide with the birth of Christ. Astronomers give similar advice about celestial bodies in the sky at that time. Did angels really sing in the heavens telling shepherds to be not afraid? I mark most Christian teachings (except that crazy bit about being good to your fellow man) as superstitious magical thinking. But Christmas is part of our culture.
I remember that amazing feeling as a kid that seemed to give Christmas its own sheen. It started the second you opened your eyes on Christmas morning and ran to the tree and it lasted all day long, bloated with Nanna's pudding and brandy sauce, pork crackling, roast potatoes, pride in giving presents that my family liked or pretended to, the heat of the day, backyard cricket with your cousins and uncles and the sheer magic of it all. It's our culture. I see it now in the eyes of my own kids and reckon we need more, not less, of that stuff these days.
I celebrate Christmas, though I must admit, my favourite part these days is not needing an excuse to watch the cricket all day on Boxing Day.
Christmas cheer to you all...
DB
phonos
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HAHA! Nice pics quantum!
This conservative christian has tried very hard to keep out of this thread, but I'll give a fair dinkum response because i think the thread was started honestly.
Personally I think christmas is often treated as an opportunity for the retail sector to make a few good natured dollars (we live in a capatalist society, so good on 'em if people are willing to pay up). But I also appreciate the fact that the birth of Jesus (even though there is only a 1/365 chance of it occuring on 25th December) gives even athiests an opportunity to spend time with their family. That's a good thing, right?
I also like the fact that Christmas is still a part of our generally secular society, and gives me an opportunity to openly celebrate Jesus with lots of other people, even if they don't really know what he was on about. Kinda like ANZAC day - very few of us where there, but we generally appreciation of what happened.
I think for most Christians its the death and ressurection of Jesus which really matters rather than his birth (and most people - and most evidence - generally accepts that he existed). And so its really easter - it think - where non-christians really struggle to know what to celebrate (except of course for the existence of chocolate easter egg porter - yum!).
This conservative christian has tried very hard to keep out of this thread, but I'll give a fair dinkum response because i think the thread was started honestly.
Personally I think christmas is often treated as an opportunity for the retail sector to make a few good natured dollars (we live in a capatalist society, so good on 'em if people are willing to pay up). But I also appreciate the fact that the birth of Jesus (even though there is only a 1/365 chance of it occuring on 25th December) gives even athiests an opportunity to spend time with their family. That's a good thing, right?
I also like the fact that Christmas is still a part of our generally secular society, and gives me an opportunity to openly celebrate Jesus with lots of other people, even if they don't really know what he was on about. Kinda like ANZAC day - very few of us where there, but we generally appreciation of what happened.
I think for most Christians its the death and ressurection of Jesus which really matters rather than his birth (and most people - and most evidence - generally accepts that he existed). And so its really easter - it think - where non-christians really struggle to know what to celebrate (except of course for the existence of chocolate easter egg porter - yum!).
matti
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The spirits are with thee h34r:
Just which spirits do you indulge in? lol.....
There is only one truth
It is the ONE you know
every thing else is heresy
Now drink in moderation and enjoy your CHRIST-mas
time to tip my Furstenberg down and catch some ZZZzz
(Nothing wrong with some SPIRIT-uality on a brewing Forum.
God bless you all
h34r: Just which spirits do you indulge in? lol.....
There is only one truth
It is the ONE you know
every thing else is heresy
Now drink in moderation and enjoy your CHRIST-mas
time to tip my Furstenberg down and catch some ZZZzz
(Nothing wrong with some SPIRIT-uality on a brewing Forum.
God bless you all
Jase71
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+ 1 , you're mirroring my point exactly. However the christian adaption is the basis of the celebration these days, not the origin.
Jase71
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There is nothing in your statement that I can disagree with.
Will you be my friend in this time of impending ostracism? 
Mantis
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Jase71
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Whoa, WHAT ? Are you trying to play on words to insult me by suggesting gayse=Jase, therefore that I am homosexual because I can string a few words together and express an independant thought process that may not be the acceptable norm? A whole seven words from you as contribution is not something to be proud of, mate. Especially considering it's offering nothing, but attempting to be insulting. Have another beer and think about what you've done. Perhaps you need a hug.
Jase71
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We knew it was going to come to this. But it's still a very good free-spirited discussion, no-one's rippinig into each other (tourist being the excetion)
And I think you meant 'spruiking'
deebee
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Jase, don't throw out the baby if it's only the bathwater you want to get rid of. Dispense with the ********, but don't dispense with our cultural identity. And make no mistake, we celebrate Christmas different to any other country in the world. My memories of Xmas are distinctly Australian.
Christianity is not the basis of the celebration for 99% of the people I know who celebrate Christmas. We just celebrate it because we always did and it makes us feel good.
I like this thread: it's good to see people put their minds to these questions.
wyatt_girth
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Jase, I see you don't 'celebrate' christmas so I am just a little curious to know what you do while a lot of folk around the place are getting into the spirit (or spirits). Must be a little difficult to carry on as though it were a normal day? Not a smartarse question - though a bit vague.
Christmas morning always has a unique feel about it for me. The streets are quiet, shops are shut, the only people that exist at that moment are those that are sitting in my lounge room - my family. Then, after everyone else has done their own thing with their families we start to gather, the phone starts to ring regularly with greetings and well wishes from family that could not be there in person but still want to share the love.The booze starts to flow. The tucker gradually makes it's way to the tables and about thirty odd people squash in together and hook in. The sound of bon bons and grumbles from the blokes as the kids insist that dad wear the hat while he reads out the lame-arse jokes from within. Grandma down one end of the table singin out for someone to please send the gravy up to her - and they do, through about 12 sets of hands. Then after this the dessert arrives without any time for the rest to hit the bottom. Mother inlaws full-bottle-of-plonk trifles get passed about with the other bits and pieces doin the rounds.
After lunch the kids get outside to play with their new toys and uncle Dickie will usually manage to break one. While dad sits back looking to do his best to get through that carton on his own but knowing that as soon as his brother's runs out he will be sniffing around his esky.
Pop gets out the trumpet, Uncle Ab brought his sax, and what d'ya know nan has a new amp for her keyboard.
What a day.
.........sorrry got a bit carried away. This was generally the christmas I used to have, but unfortunatley they are long gone. Things change, people die, people move away, or just can't make it. Christmas is a time to enjoy life, drink, eat, laugh, and make the most of what you have - while you still have it.
Merry Christmas to all that are celebrating. And to everyone else, enjoy your holiday.
:icon_cheers:
edit: some spelling
Christmas morning always has a unique feel about it for me. The streets are quiet, shops are shut, the only people that exist at that moment are those that are sitting in my lounge room - my family. Then, after everyone else has done their own thing with their families we start to gather, the phone starts to ring regularly with greetings and well wishes from family that could not be there in person but still want to share the love.The booze starts to flow. The tucker gradually makes it's way to the tables and about thirty odd people squash in together and hook in. The sound of bon bons and grumbles from the blokes as the kids insist that dad wear the hat while he reads out the lame-arse jokes from within. Grandma down one end of the table singin out for someone to please send the gravy up to her - and they do, through about 12 sets of hands. Then after this the dessert arrives without any time for the rest to hit the bottom. Mother inlaws full-bottle-of-plonk trifles get passed about with the other bits and pieces doin the rounds.
After lunch the kids get outside to play with their new toys and uncle Dickie will usually manage to break one. While dad sits back looking to do his best to get through that carton on his own but knowing that as soon as his brother's runs out he will be sniffing around his esky.
Pop gets out the trumpet, Uncle Ab brought his sax, and what d'ya know nan has a new amp for her keyboard.
What a day.
.........sorrry got a bit carried away. This was generally the christmas I used to have, but unfortunatley they are long gone. Things change, people die, people move away, or just can't make it. Christmas is a time to enjoy life, drink, eat, laugh, and make the most of what you have - while you still have it.
Merry Christmas to all that are celebrating. And to everyone else, enjoy your holiday.
:icon_cheers:
edit: some spelling
Jakechan
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Im only new here, but very pleased to see you guys discussing things like this. Sure, Im here for the beer talk but its nice to know that we can talk about current topics in this manner too.
For the record, I'm a devout atheist
Im a bit bah-humbuggy when it comes to xmas, but I think its good for people to enjoy this annual celebration whatever it means to them, especially up here as its so stinking hot.
Cheers,
Jake
For the record, I'm a devout atheist
Im a bit bah-humbuggy when it comes to xmas, but I think its good for people to enjoy this annual celebration whatever it means to them, especially up here as its so stinking hot.
Cheers,
Jake
We knew it was going to come to this. But it's still a very good free-spirited discussion, no-one's rippinig into each other (tourist being the excetion)
And I think you meant 'spruiking'
Come to this? No I meant "sprooking".
The tourists?
