And So This Is ........ Anzac Day

[tcraig20]

Independence Day?
What`s that got to do with Oz and Anzac Day?:lol:
You keep saying you`ve done some course in law study, you come across as well.. a bit dumb, if you don`t mind me saying.

stagga.

I dont claim to be an intellectual heavyweight, but I understand what he said...

 

[manticle]

I joined this forum to talk about brewing and the general focus on said topic is why I keep coming back.

I belong to other fora which seem less focussed and more readily accepting of shitfighting and drama. I like to keep them separate.

Nonetheless my brief response to the OP is thus:

While not a fan of most governments and generally mistrustful of authority, I see ANZAC day as a day when people can remember loved ones who fight and either returned injured and/or traumatised or died. That glorifies nothing - in fact, if anything such commemoration occasionally makes people think about the farcical nature of war and the oft ridiculous, heartless and compassionless decisions of relevant authorities at various times.

I'm happy to remember wwI veterans when I'm 90 - not with a big hoopla kafuffle or shouting out "up yours Jerry!!" but because it's sad that 15 year old kids had to die in mud to defend what they thought was right and not only do they deserve it but the future deserves it to try and ensure it doesn't happen again.

@Jayse: I'm pretty cynical about a lot of ceremony too but some people need it, some people want it and some people love it. The grand final gets shoved in my face far more than ANZAC day, so does Oak's day. If people want to march to respect those who fought and those who died then I have no problem. If we burnt effigies of Turkish or German soldiers I could see the upset but it's more about remembance and respect to my mind.

@ Chappo: I know it's a sacred day for a lot of people but the term 'unaustralian' is in itself pretty unaustralian. Australia is a place of diverse cultures, ideas and grudging respect for people who speak their mind, even if you think it's horseshit. Please; say it's horseshit by all means but don't use that phrase. It reminds me of a certain PM who doubled as Mr sheen on occasion.

@Stagga - you should re-read. He was distinguishing ANZAC day (a day of remembrance) FROM Independence day (a day of glorification) thus the connection.

Now let's all talk about beer as that is what truly unites us.

 

[bum]

This forum is set aside to NOT be about beer. It says so out front.

I was at the footy last night and the Last Post was played, minute silence and all that. With about 10 seconds to go some drunk fuckwit screams at the top of his voice "GO, TIGERS!" It was pretty disgusting.

 

[browndog]

Manticle,
This is the "off topic" part of the forum, if you want to talk beer, stick to the rest of the forums. I find it absurd that you come here telling people to stick to beer. This is were we talk about other stuff, Unfortunately it is lately dominated by someone who wants to stir a bit of shit. Jase1, your other threads are OK in my book, but when you start to question ANZAC day, well, you can &%$# ^%% you really showed your true colours and I won't be reading anymore of your crap.

cheers

Browndog

 

[Pollux]

Well said Browndog...


While this section is about non-beer or brewing related topics, it is not (IMHO) a place to simply start stirring shit up for the sake of doing so...Particularly on topics like this, while I am fortunate enough to have not lost any close family members in war, I still respect those who served our country and were left behind.

 

[schooey]

Firstly, a belated Lest We Forget

Secondly;

I would hate to be an old man in 30 years from now and hear people honouring those who fought in Timor, Iraq or Afghanistan, because there is simply no threat to our so called 'freedom', and those soldiers made the choice to be part of a military establishment.

I've read some crap and outrageous statements on this forum, but you win the prize with this one, Jase.... Whether you agree or not with the fundamental reasoning behind why these conflicts started, I doubt any of us would or could feel too much confidence in the custodians of our countries' safety if our defence force had the option to say "Nah... we don't want to go fight this one, Sarge, because we don't agree with the conflict". Just the same as we would run out of allies rather quickly if we didn't support them. So I'm happy to acknowledge the sacrifice the people that have fought in any conflict have made for this country, I will bow my head and pay them the respect they deserve and be extremely greatful that they had the salt to go and do so.

On a side note, I had dinner with a fella who served in Timor the other night. He has some medals for some particular conflicts he was in. He doesn't march and display them, although he has the option to. He says that they went through nothing like what our Diggers went through. After talking a little more he described some of the things they saw that I believe no man should ever have to see, and they returned to very little support for it. But the key thing he said was; Indonesia were really starting to walk all over Timor, really giving them a hard time. Should we have just stood by and watched one of our smallest, nearest neighbours cop a flogging? Seems like watching some idiot flogging a 10 year old girl to me, of course we should have stepped in.

Anyway, yeeha to you, you got another bite from me, but now you are nothing but words on a screen to me, a nothing, time wasting baiter. Congrats

 

[manticle]

Manticle,
I find it absurd that you come here telling people to stick to beer. This is were we talk about other stuff, .

Except that's not what I was really saying at all.

I know what this part of the forum is for. I get enough drama elswhere and I was trying to be honest about how I felt and and lighthearted at the same time.

By all means have all the drama you like - the internet is full of it. If all you took from my post is me telling people how to behave in the off-topic section then you obviously didn't bother to read what I wrote.

 

[hoohaaman]

There's already considerable murmurings throughout AHB regarding ANZAC Day, so how about a thread specific to what it means to members, so as to avoid Off-topic rants?

Unlike Christmas/Easter etc where there are alternate 'meanings' behind the occasion not specific to the origin of Christianity (ie time with family, time off work etc), this year's ANZAC day isn't a day off for most people, so there's no 'convenience' time to have that barbie with mates, or just chill out. I just know someone will chime in and say that they're getting paid holiday rates for working that day, but let's put that aside for now, shall we, and discuss 'what ANZAC Day means to you'.......

Is ANZAC Day a time to remember the fallen soldiers that fought, not by choice in many cases (the zeitgeist was a such that non-conscripted men & women felt compelled, so it may as well have been forced), but by obligation, to preserve some sense of 'freedom' that we are living in as a society, or is it simply a tradition that will eventually be phased out as time marches on ? Do we honour those people who have died in recent conflicts - armed servicemen & women who made the career choice to joined the armed services knowing full well the implications of their trade ? I would hate to be an old man in 30 years from now and hear people honouring those who fought in Timor, Iraq or Afghanistan, because there is simply no threat to our so called 'freedom', and those soldiers made the choice to be part of a military establishment.

Don't misread my intent here, this isn't an opening to a thread that's intended to ruffle feathers by intention - although that's going to be inevitable. But how long do we continue to honour World War One veterans with a national day of pride when there simply aren't any left to honour ?

The last war in which our countrymen were forced to take part in was the second Indochina conflict (or the "Vietnam War" for those of you unfamiliar with the terminology). And there wasn't really any threat of big-bad-communism, was there ? It was simply a popular TV war in which Australia was obliged to fall into line with another country's paranoid ideal that this was a war that, by all contemporary accounts, should never have been allowed to happen.

And ultimately, do we really have freedom today in 2009 ? Today's enemy is far more subtle in it's offensive strategy.

Jase u r just another country's paranoia,your arab parents prolly felt the same way in their new country.

 

[staggalee]

Honestly, it just never ceases to amaze me, you blokes know you are being suckered, but you never fail to rush in and reply to Jase`s baits.
Meanwhile, he`s sitting back laughing at it all, and dreaming up another one. :lol:

stagga.

 

[porky]

Honestly, it just never ceases to amaze me, you blokes know you are being suckered, but you never fail to rush in and reply to Jase`s baits.
Meanwhile, he`s sitting back laughing at it all, and dreaming up another one. :lol:

stagga.

I agree, if he got NO replies he would stop bothering to post this crap.

Bud

 

[brettprevans]

Independence Day?
What`s that got to do with Oz and Anzac Day?:lol:
You keep saying you`ve done some course in law study, you come across as well.. a bit dumb, if you don`t mind me saying.

stagga.

so Stagga, still think im a bit dim witted? Manticle and JamesCraig got what I meant. I didnt realise I had to spell out Independenace day for a specific country (ie USA). I thought it was quite straight forward a comment. but then again im yet to see you post anything of worth on this topic. actually thats not true. you were right about Jase baiting/trolling.

you can be a real dumb arse...if you don'd mind me saying. in all seriousness I dont care what you say. your entitled to your opinion.

oh and to clear up what I studied back at uni - Dip Soc Science Justice, BA Criminal Justice Admin. Dip Law. Master Bus Admin, All with distinction average. that enough?


Back OT. I had a good anzac day. a little wet and cold but all good. lots of rum with some ex and current defence force buddies. bloody good turn out world wide.

 

[staggalee]

stagga.

 

[petesbrew]

Didn't go to a service myself this year, however I raised my glass to all who have served while I did a brew.

 

[cdbrown]

I was at the local service with my wife and baby and we hope to continue to attend the services each year. It's something we want to do after attending the full ANZAC service at Galipoli in 07 which really helped understand the hell that these young men (from all sides) had to endure.

I don't go to remember the war, I go to pay my respects to those service men and women who have gone out and fought for Aus and NZ.

 

[manticle]

and NZ.

Too often forgotten.

 

[Jase71]

Chappo: As for Jase71 shoot down some other topic mate.

I was the topic starter, people didn't 'need' to respond so vehemently. A simple "Screw You, Commie" would have sufficed.

homekegger1: This is my final word on this subject.

You sure?

homekegger1: Jase you are a peanut

I am not a peanut, I am a free man. (paraphrase)

homekegger1: It (ANZAC Day) is not a political day for blokes like you that think hypocrisy and atrocity should have light shed upon them. "Free tibet" F*^K me mate, look in your own backyard and realise that we have problems here in Australia too.

Yes, we do. Still.... despite all those galliant efforts of our forefathers. What have YOU done lately to support those in need, in 'our own backyard'? And who exactly are you to suggest that people shouldn't conduct open discussion into specific subject matter on this day ? Aren't you argueing that freedom is paramount, or does that come with conditions ?

homekegger1: Pull your head out of your death metal music

Huh? Tonight I have been listening to Cat Stevens, Crosby, Stills & Nash, Buffalo Springfield and the Tea Party. Oh yea, and a little bit of the German band Sodom, if that makes you feel better.

homekegger1: Tomorrow stay home with a fist where it belongs.

In the air, proudly raising my fist in resistance ? I have absolutely no shame in my objectional demeanour, irrespective of how unpopular I might be in your circles.

homekegger1: I am a proud Australian, who is willing to put my life on the line for this great country. I am a serving member of the defence force and I will always remember those that have fallen. Be it WW1 or East Timor. They fight with courage and honour. Something that you IMHO lack, sitting at your computer in the safety of your home away from any human contact.

You assume that I would not enter into such discussion with people on a face-to-face basis. Quite a shallow evaluation from someone who hasn't met me & , considering that I take EVERY opportunity to speak about issues past & present with servicemen. The last talk I had was with an Australian Naval-Government-Militant who was so sucked in to idea that the Indonesian Government are Australia's biggest threat. Is that what they have all current armed forces members beleive ? Is that what they teach you to think too ? From where I'm sitting, I can't see any agressive millitary invasion of this country anytime soon...... but hey, I hope your millitant career is working out for you. Many thanks for taking the angle of personal slurs against me to illustrate your objection towards the opening post.

Chappo: Remember mateship, loyalty, honour and bravery built this country.

No, what built this country (socialogically, not geologically) was first the murderous domination over a native peoples. Followed by a steady influx of immigration in the last 40 years. The "Yellow Peril" paranoia is over, brother.

manticle: @Jayse: I'm pretty cynical about a lot of ceremony too but some people need it, some people want it and some people love it. The grand final gets shoved in my face far more than ANZAC day,

Please be careful not to misrepresent member's 'handles' (ie screen names). "Jayse" is an entirely different entity, and I am sure that he would not want to have mud wrongly slung towards his good standing as a result of my controversial diatribes. That aside, you raise a good point, Manticle. I think the ANZAC feeling is all about 'ceremony', and we've all grown up to be conditioned into the mindset that it's 'the done thing' to 'respect the diggers'. I don't particularly disrespect the idea, and I have not eluded to such, but at the same time I cannot simply follow suit because it's the expected and anticipated behaviour. Good on the veterans, I also have family ties that fought in WW2, Korea, & Vietnam. However I shall re-iterate my question - when will it end ? The original ANZAC's are all dead, aren't they ? If we keep celebrating their alleged achievements, or the 'fight for our freedom', does is then become as vacuous as the dogmatic idealism of Christianity, and the story of Jesus dying for our sins ?

manticle: @ Chappo: I know it's a sacred day for a lot of people but the term 'unaustralian' is in itself pretty unaustralian. Australia is a place of diverse cultures, ideas and grudging respect for people who speak their mind, even if you think it's horseshit. Please; say it's horseshit by all means but don't use that phrase. It reminds me of a certain PM who doubled as Mr sheen on occasion.

Exactly. What does it mean to be "Australian"? Do my (admittedly) often controversial viewpoints strip me of the right to call myself "Australian"? I'm friggin' Dinki-Di.. FFS, someone's even gone so far as to label me of a specific heritage..... as follows:

Jase u r just another country's paranoia,your arab parents prolly felt the same way in their new country.

WTF ? Is that all you have to offer ? Did our fallen forefathers fight for our freedom in order for you to make such misguided comments ? Inshallah you will learn to respect all some day. Perhaps you might even learn to communicate correctly outside of internet vernacular such as 'prolly'.......

browndog: Jase1, your other threads are OK in my book, but when you start to question ANZAC day, well, you can &%$# ^%% you really showed your true colours and I won't be reading anymore of your crap.

So I'm all cool in your books, as long as I don't speak of subjects that you don't agree with ? That must be a selective freedom. It's pointless to adress your post further, because you won't be reading anyway.

staggalee: Honestly, it just never ceases to amaze me, you blokes know you are being suckered, but you never fail to rush in and reply to Jase`s baits.

The Stag is my biological father, He's the darth Vader to my Luke... so his evaluations are quite spot on, and his timely warnings are apt. I love you, Pappa. Take the spark from my thunder as you have always done.

Listen to the man with the husky voice, people.

 

[staggalee]

I`m your father?
Oh, the joy.
Watch my Forum Popularity Star soar to {even} greater heights now :lol:

dad.

 

[manticle]

@jase71:

I must be mellowing in my old age. I used to feel much more passionately about Christianity and other social structures but as I grow older I realsise my dogmatism was no better than that I proclaimed to despise. Same with most other things. The world is a diverse place - that's one reason I love it and if that means there's a whole lot of donkeys doing things I wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge pole then as long as my freedom to be my own kind of farm animal is respected then I wish them all good luck.

The world is never going to come round to my way of thinking, nor I to theirs, so if I can live life, impacting the least on others in a negative way then that's enough for me.

You have to separate the true meaning of things from the bullshit and focus on that. Not always easy, granted but angry people just end up sitting on verandahs shooting schoolkids with BB guns.

 

[chappo1970]

Chappo: As for Jase71 shoot down some other topic mate.

I was the topic starter, people didn't 'need' to respond so vehemently. A simple "Screw You, Commie" would have sufficed.

Nah where would the fun be in that Jase? Besides that would be way to easy, your not a communist because you have a different slant on things. However I am sure that the OP was meant to raise a few eyebrows at what is and will remain very passionate subject matter to few, yes?

Chappo: Remember mateship, loyalty, honour and bravery built this country.

No, what built this country (socialogically, not geologically) was first the murderous domination over a native peoples. Followed by a steady influx of immigration in the last 40 years. The "Yellow Peril" paranoia is over, brother.

Huh? Yes the Aboriginals are a conquered race dominated by white man, their civilisation and their laws. Should I feel ashamed of that fact? Did I have a say over the way the way it was handled? Should we all perhaps say "very sorry for the inconvience", pack up and leave? Completely irrelivant arguement.

 

[staggalee]

There was a discussion a while back about this, someone came out with the revelation "The poms killed the abos".
I thought for a bald and dismissive statement, that was right up at the top.

stagga.