Saving time/overnight mashing.

[Coldspace]

With the advent of all these small electric brew units, brewmeister, grain father,Robo brew etc plus the many excellent home made jobbies out there, over night mashing although not new by any means seems to me to be an excellent way for us time poor brewers to save some time, get some improvements for efficiency and keep SWMBO a little more happy, seems too many benifits.

I was inspired by Batz imput on this and thought I'd carry on learning new brew techniques ....

Thursday night, milled 2 x 9 kg batches of grain doing a aussie style lager and LCPA clone which I love double batch high grav brews in the gf's
So Friday night after dinner , tired from work had a few quiet ales, set up my and my brothers grainfathers
Filled up with filtered water, treated with minerals half campden tablet each, heated to 55, dough in , held for 10 mins, raised them up to 66, held for 45 , 72 for 15 mash out at 77. Measured out hop additions,At this stage it was 10 pm, I left the grainfathers on the 500 watt heat setting and pumps running. They cycled the elements on and off approx 50% of the time and held at 77.
Went to bed, got up at 7 am, put them into boil mode and sparged. I had the sparge urns on timers at 6 am so when I got up at 7 they were ready.
The malt smell at 7 am was Devine , and the clarity was crystal clear....
Boiled, hops, 4 x cubed up all done by 10am cleaned up. Cubes sitting in swimming pool. I'm sold tks to Batz .
Any others want to add to this, I left mine on mash out over night, wort tastes terrific, hit all my numbers spot on.
Reading on other blogs about this, thinking mash in 55, 64-66 for 1 hr depending on receipe, then to 70-71 for over night, then mash out in morning for 20 mins while heating up sparge urns..
Might get more efficiency , and only adds 20 mins in morning.

Questions,
Does doing the beta first as usual for say 1 hr then upto the alpha of say 69-71 for rest of the night then mash out in morning be agood way to run?

Or just keep doing what I did Friday night, all the mash rests till mash out temp, then leave at 77 over night a more consistant option.

I've read that really long over night mashes can give you really awesome attenuation , great for drier beers but maybe not so for some styles, would holding it less at the 65 then over night at 70-71 help address this issue for some styles...?

I've read other guys in the past used to do overnight mashes but in reverse because of the lack of small heating element controlled by controller, mash in high say 69-70, wrap in doonah, then in morning the mash dropped back down to 60 or so, then boil away. Bribie you done this before...

With the advent of these semi auto systems we can do all sorts of things, bacterial issues are going to be non issue at our temps over night,
I'm only new to this, one double batch over night down, will be running this way from now on , keen to refine it as usual,

I'm all ears guys ....

Cheers and beers...

 

[manticle]

If you rest too long at beta, there'll be nothing left for alpha.

The other advantage of mash out in this circumstance is that it should effectively kill bacteria present in the mash.

 

[Coldspace]

So, what I'm thinking is maybe Beta for 30 mins, alpha for 30 and mash out overnight as described ...?

Would for a standard pale ale or something similar, mash in 55 and then hold at 66 over night?

My understanding is the enzymes work at all temps, just a some faster than others at optimum temps, so 66 been the sweet spot both may work as happy campers over night , till morning mash out and boil?

I was thinking this to increase the grav, but I hit all numbers fri nite anyway and the gf on low heat held it at 77 easy, but at 66 would be less load,

I easy to keep it at 77 overnight anyway..

At 66, that should be hot enough to ward off souring the mash? I'm not leaving it more than 8-9 hrs, unless I'm hung over and sleeping in lol

 

[MHB]

There was an old overnight mash used in Germany (probably other places too) the mash was mashed in cold (ambient), left overnight to hydrate and for the enzymes to go into solution and perhaps to do some work, in the morning the wort was heated by either decoction or by adding boiling water.
There are some small gains in extract, but not enough to pay for the extra energy and time the equipment was tied up for, talking about commercial operations.

Might even be worth thinking about with under-modified malt, or just mash in cold the night before and start heating at the other end in a more conventional step regime.

Do a bit more reading, and I'm going to say nearly every assumption made above is either wrong or much more complex than you would like to think.
Brewing is a science and its been well researched for hundreds of years, before you tare up everything we know, it is a really good idea to understand what is really happening.

 

[manticle]

Not exactly 'happen at all temps' - just that they are optimised within a certain range, will occur underneath that range but more slowly and will start to denature above it, more rapidly as it gets hotter.

66 may be hot enough to kill lacto - I'm not sure but 77 will definitely be*. Pasteurisation also happens much more quickly at higher temps and 77 is well above recommended food pasteurisation temp (66 isn't, 65ish is the upper end at which some spoilage bacteria can actually grow).

Presumably you are programming all this so I'd reccommend hitting 77 as a safeguard. Probably fine but the only way to find out it's not is to **** up a batch.

*some lacto strains may be tolerant to even these temps - not sure if these strains are present in grain or not. Ultimately if you end up with soured wort, you'll know why.

 

[Coldspace]

I'll stick to what I did Friday night, standard mash regime, into mash out territory of 77, off to bed, sparge and boil first thing in the morning. Still saves me the weekend to do other things.

Cheers for the input guys..

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I didn't think bacteria in the mash is any problem since the wort gets boiled for so long after. Maybe I'm getting off track. I do the old time methods in a way.

I mash in an esky, no additional heating and the trick is getting strike water temps correct but its not hard, its easy with the help of Beersmith estimates and recorded notes etc. Old style Decoction techniques get some lovely malt flavours too. I am fond of melanoiden malt character.

Plenty of times I have done the overnight mash. Just left it at my chosen saccarification temp. Next morning it may have dropped 7c.

In comparison when I do the one day thing with a 60- 90 minute mash time I cant actually see much of a difference. Efficiency, flavours etc all seem the same so it has been a time saver thing for me too kinda. Put the mash in the night before. Same time spent either way but its a handy option considering it has no negative effects at all as far as I can tell.

 

[Coldspace]

Tks Dancraftbeers , I understand the science side of it abit, but also love personal experiences. I'll think the bacterial spoilage manticle is referring to is actually souring the mash taste which a boil will kill the nasty but not remove the taste .
But hey, if it's working fine with you and I've seen others do same then all good.

I'll experiment more as well as read up more, but i did read an article on one craft brewery in the USA doing similar things to up production.

I'm trying to save time, I'm always running short of beer, because of a thirsty family lol, a reason I got my bro to invest in a gf and another kegmenter , so we can keep up..
Plus the fact we got mini kegs last bulk buy so beer goes everywhere there's social things on.

Interesting on it dropping 7 degrees with no ill effect tasted.

I think initially after 95% of the mash has achieved its goals before bedtime then the small remainder of not been in right temp spot will do not much to the quality.
Correct me if I'm off track please...
I'm planning another double batch gf's run next Friday night /sat morning for another 4 cubes, we should be sweet again for another month or so.

Cheers

 

[Moad]

you could use more advanced controller to help. I use a BCS-462 and fill my vessels the night before, set it to start heating the water at 3am. I get up at 5am and mash in then go back to bed. Then I get up at 7.30am to kick the sparge off and go onto the boil from there. It helps with such large volumes with increased heating times, also helps with large volumes of complaints from the wife about brewing time.

 

[malt junkie]

Matho's controller has the same sort of delayed start. So when you get up in the morning your at strike ready to mash in. And like Moads setup the entire mash regime can be fully automated until it's time to sparge. By then you should have made the pancakes for the missus, had your fair share and be on your third coffee.

 

[technobabble66]

... I get up at 5am and mash in then go back to bed. Then I get up at 7.30am to kick the sparge off ....

You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:

On topic, I regularly (currently doing it tonight!) mash, sparge, then bring to boil (for 20+ mins or so) on day 1, then on day 2 bring back up to the boil, boil down to a set level then cube. So overnight i'd finish the last 30-60secs of the boil with the lid on, then wrap in a towel to semi-seal.
FWIW, I only do FWH during the boil, so it also gives me a little extra freedom in boil timing.
Occasionally even bring to boil on Day 2 for 10-20mins to re-sanitise, then shut it down, and do the final boil & cube on day 3.

The thinking behind doing all of that on Day 1 is that the enzymes will be active until hitting ~80°C, and the wort won't be particularly sterile until hitting boil. So i've not been 100% comfortable with just holding the mash at 76-80°C for several hours in case there are enzymes still active in the wort (that go on to undo all my careful step mashing) or there are bacteria that could still be alive - all of which later take advantage of their respective temperature windows as the temperature slowly drop overnight. Admittedly beta is the main concern and that should be completely deactivated by ~75°C.
The idea is to get it all to the point whereby the entire mash process is completed and the derived wort hits a boil for 10-20 mins. Hence the enzymes will DEFINITELY be kaput and the wort will DEFINITELY be sterile for a short-ish period of time.
You're probably fine hitting mash-out of ~78°C for several hours with respect to both keeping it sanitised and deactivating the enzymes. My only concern for my own process is the issue with potential tannin extraction etc, at that 78-80°C temp (FWIW, it'd be a struggle for me to maintain that temp, so my decision also relates to the limit of my tech).
Essentially, i'd give it a crack & see how you go - as per Danscraftbeer, you may find it works well for you and you can't detect any difference, so why the firetruck not?

 

[Yob]

Ive done it loads, mash in cold, set the hex to 78, the timer for 4am.

After the kids breakfasts are done I fly sparge it out and boil.

My little hex does a nice slow ramp, close to 2'c min but gets the job done.. Never had an issue with the resultant.. Usually only done it on ipa's and bigger beers but just go for it. Saves a bunch of time.

 

[Coldspace]

You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:

On topic, I regularly (currently doing it tonight!) mash, sparge, then bring to boil (for 20+ mins or so) on day 1, then on day 2 bring back up to the boil, boil down to a set level then cube. So overnight i'd finish the last 30-60secs of the boil with the lid on, then wrap in a towel to semi-seal.
FWIW, I only do FWH during the boil, so it also gives me a little extra freedom in boil timing.
Occasionally even bring to boil on Day 2 for 10-20mins to re-sanitise, then shut it down, and do the final boil & cube on day 3.

The thinking behind doing all of that on Day 1 is that the enzymes will be active until hitting ~80°C, and the wort won't be particularly sterile until hitting boil. So i've not been 100% comfortable with just holding the mash at 76-80°C for several hours in case there are enzymes still active in the wort (that go on to undo all my careful step mashing) or there are bacteria that could still be alive - all of which later take advantage of their respective temperature windows as the temperature slowly drop overnight. Admittedly beta is the main concern and that should be completely deactivated by ~75°C.
The idea is to get it all to the point whereby the entire mash process is completed and the derived wort hits a boil for 10-20 mins. Hence the enzymes will DEFINITELY be kaput and the wort will DEFINITELY be sterile for a short-ish period of time.
You're probably fine hitting mash-out of ~78°C for several hours with respect to both keeping it sanitised and deactivating the enzymes. My only concern for my own process is the issue with potential tannin extraction etc, at that 78-80°C temp (FWIW, it'd be a struggle for me to maintain that temp, so my decision also relates to the limit of my tech).
Essentially, i'd give it a crack & see how you go - as per Danscraftbeer, you may find it works well for you and you can't detect any difference, so why the firetruck not?

I like this idea, will give me more time on Saturday, especially when kids start school sports.
I'll mash in, steps, mash out , and sparge the grainfather, bring to boil as you said for 10 mins on Friday night. Shut it down. Which is proballly a safer option than leaving run all night. Wrap in blanket .
Sat, morning bring to boil, hops, cube up.
Plus the fact the grain like you say is not sitting around over night in 77-78 temps.
Will only add half hr extra fri night for me, half hr less sat morning , which for my circumstances is better, plus if I do sleep in alittle sat morning no biggie.
I might invest in some grain father coats for the winter months to help retain the overnight heat...
I Should be done before lazy teenagers are even out of bed lol

Cheers for the idea

 

[Coalminer]

Done 6 separate no-chill cubes at the weekend, 2 of them overnight
As I normally awake by 5am its no drama
I mash in at ambient with the BM set for 180mins at ambient then normal step mash after that. start it off at 10:30 -11:00pm
get up in the morning as it is finishing mash out. If I get up a bit later no problems - just an extended mash-out
Lift the pipe and start boil. cube done by 7:30am. Then 2 more during the day. Same set-up Sunday.
Still time to cut the grass and do a bit of shopping

 

[Moad]

You're not selling that well, Moad. :huh:

7 month old in the house, I don't sleep anyway!

 

[Dan Pratt]

I've been overnight mashing for a while and its very time efficient and increased my yield by about 5% on average. I mash in at 20-25c depending on the ground water temps @ 930pm and set the BM to run the following:

20m/52c, 60m/65c, 20m/72c, 180m/76c x 2 = ~ 9hrs of mash time.

Total time on average for no chilled is 2.5hrs - 20mins prep the night of mash in - weigh and mill grains, fill with water, mash in, check pH etc etc...go to bed, next morning..., lift malt pipe, sparge and bring to boil, 60min boil, WP and transfer, clean up. For chilled beers that is 3.25hrs as these are hoppy ales with whirlpoolling hot and @ 75c plus chilling takes ages through my CFC and groundwater.

Its a luxury with the BM and I get better numbers with lower grain abortions as the 76c rest for extended periods seems to rinse or drain much better than single infusion mashes.

This brewing method gives me the rest of the day to see family and friends or chill out, plus without drinking while brewing, only coffee at that time of day. :beerbang:

 

[mofox1]

Ive done it loads, mash in cold, set the hex to 78, the timer for 4am.

After the kids breakfasts are done I fly sparge it out and boil.

My little hex does a nice slow ramp, close to 2'c min but gets the job done.. Never had an issue with the resultant.. Usually only done it on ipa's and bigger beers but just go for it. Saves a bunch of time.

I'm unable to set a timer up on mine (brew panel is on a 32amp supply, and anyway the panel will not turn on unless all switches are in the "off" position).

However, mashing in cold - I like that idea a lot. I usually preheat my HLT the night before (getting 80L up to boiling the night before usually results in around sacc temp the next morning)... but this will take it to whole new level. Just need to turn the system on and go. Should also stop me getting in trouble with the missus because for whatever reason I didn't mash in until 12pm and I'm still cleaning up at dinner time... :/

Yo, Yob... any issues with recirculation at cold temps after the overnight rest? I need to ease into a full flow when I've mashed in at 50-65. Never done it from 15-20 degrees before.

 

[Yob]

I set the bed the night before, kicks on just fine

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I like this idea, will give me more time on Saturday, especially when kids start school sports.
I'll mash in, steps, mash out , and sparge the grainfather, bring to boil as you said for 10 mins on Friday night. Shut it down. Which is proballly a safer option than leaving run all night. Wrap in blanket .
Sat, morning bring to boil, hops, cube up.

One thing. I have done this with 40lt brew. Turned off the keggle. Left sit overnight then brought back to boil the next morning and I got a scorched bottom. Wort left to sit that long there was sediment. Then cranked up the flame and burned the sediment cake.
So in hindsight I needed to stir up the bottom well before cranking up the heat.

 

[technobabble66]

^^ agree completely!

I realized this afternoon after posting that I'd forgotten to mention this important step: it's best to stir the cool wort a few times while heating to ensure the element or base of your pot isn't too heavily caked in hot break.
*Especially at the start!*
Also might be more important if you don't recirculate through your mash at mash out (because you'll have much more sediment in your kettle) or if your using wheat or oats in your grist (might make for a slightly "gummier" sediment?).

I've not burnt the hot break yet, but it's looked pretty close a few times when I've gone to clean the urn's element afterwards. One stir at the start is probably all that's needed, but I keep my lid on until I hit 90+ (speeds up the reheating by a moderate amount), so a little stir to get a better temp reading is done anyway.