Salt Additons

[Renzo]

Gday all,

Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the Total amount of liquor used or the amount at pre-boil. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.

 

[Wolfy]

do you scale the salt additions according to the Total amount of liquor used or the amount at pre-boil.

... or how about the total post boil (fermentation) volume?

 

[Renzo]

... or how about the total post boil (fermentation) volume?

I'd say definitely not post boil as the intention is to create a water profile aimed at the mash and to some extent sulphate chloride ratio for the boil. All the talk in the jamil/palmer waterganza podcast (and other sites) was about pre-boil but I can't work out if it means actual pre-boil or total liquor used. I get that either way the additions are all about balancing PH etc but scaling to HLT volume or kettle volume affects the alkilinity & SRM amongst other things.

Just to clarify here's a Burton profile with salt addtion based on 19 litres pre-boil. Question is it actual pre-boil or HLT volume? Frfom here does one scale to say 38litre HLT or 32 pre-boil ( 6liters in soaked grain left behind)

Burton Pale Ale -- A toned-down, "idealized" profile. Enough sulphate to bring out the hops without overdoing it. Low alkalinity helps ensure proper mash pH. Model: Moshers 'Ideal Pale Ale". 1 gram baking soda, 1 gram canning salt, 3.5 grams Epsom salt, 9 grams gypsum. Ca=111, SO4=337, Mg=18, Na=35, Cl=32, CO3=38, Hardness=352, Alkalinity=31.

 

[Brad Churchill]

I am pretty sure I remember reading in How to Brew that it is your total volume. In this case 38 L.
The way I see it is if you are trying to recreate London's water profile for example then you would be looking at adjusting the entire quantity of the water used to that profile because if you were brewing in London then that is the profile of the water you are using.

Cheers
Brad

Gday all,

Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the Total amount of liquor used or the amount at pre-boil. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.

 

[Renzo]

I am pretty sure I remember reading in How to Brew that it is your total volume. In this case 38 L.
The way I see it is if you are trying to recreate London's water profile for example then you would be looking at adjusting the entire quantity of the water used to that profile because if you were brewing in London then that is the profile of the water you are using.

Cheers
Brad

Cheers mate.

That's what I thought too and am leaning towards. But the confusing thing is that if I calculate on 38 litres and say for example add 12 litres worth of salts to the mash
(depending on water/grain ration) and then 16 to the kettle that would equal 38 litres in total but there's only 32 litres in the actual kettle so maybe I might be in danger of oversh0oting the kettle additon if I base it off 38 litres. It's got me stuffed.

 

[Filby]

Wouldnt you just mix up 38lt and the salts in the HLT and then go about your normal way of brewing? Seems to be overly complicated trying to do it per fraction of water in the different stages.
Also you have written 12+16=38 (=28) or im not reading it right.


Fil

 

[eamonnfoley]

Gday all,

Can anyone shed light on salt additions. If using distilled/RO water do you scale the salt additions according to the Total amount of liquor used or the amount at pre-boil. I realise adding a % to the mash and then remainder to the kettle is the way to go but not sure on wether to scale to HLT volume ( i.e amount of liquor for both mash and sparge) or pre-boil volume. I'll sparge with distilled/RO only. E.g for a 22 litre batch post boil I might need 38litres liquor but pre-boil is 32 litres. Cheers.

Total amount of water used. Mash & sparge. Thats how it would be if a certain water profile was coming out of your tap. An easy way is to put the mash+sparge amount of salts in your mash, and sparge with RO water. That way your PH stays constant during the sparge.

 

[MattC]

Renzo, have you seen this file? Its the water chemistry spreadsheet from palmers website. I use it to determine how much of each slat i will add based on my source water (in your case RO water) and the type of beer im brewing (target RA).

Cheers

View attachment Palmers_water_spreadsheet.xls

 

[Renzo]

Wouldnt you just mix up 38lt and the salts in the HLT and then go about your normal way of brewing? Seems to be overly complicated trying to do it per fraction of water in the different stages.
Also you have written 12+16=38 (=28) or im not reading it right.


Fil

Apologies I meant 38.

Some salts namely chalk don't dissolve in the HLT.

 

[seamad]

When I was asking about salt additions someone on the forum gave me this link:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/

I found it very useful and well worth the read ( it's fairly long)

cheers

 

[Renzo]

Total amount of water used. Mash & sparge. Thats how it would be if a certain water profile was coming out of your tap. An easy way is to put the mash+sparge amount of salts in your mash, and sparge with RO water. That way your PH stays constant during the sparge.

No worries about the sparge with RO water but adding all the salts to the mash I thought would affect the RA.

 

[Renzo]

Renzo, have you seen this file? Its the water chemistry spreadsheet from palmers website. I use it to determine how much of each slat i will add based on my source water (in your case RO water) and the type of beer im brewing (target RA).

Cheers

Cheers, I'll check that out

 

[Renzo]

When I was asking about salt additions someone on the forum gave me this link:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/

I found it very useful and well worth the read ( it's fairly long)

cheers

It all seems so simple now. Cheers for that.

 

[MHB]

RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most peoples sparge conditions.
Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
MHB

 

[argon]

I'd recommend getting yourself a free copy of EZWaterCalculator it's super easy to use and takes into account your current profile (RO is void of everything so that's easy) volumes, grainbill and SRM. I use it in conjunction with Beersmith and makes the water profiling very easy.

 

[Renzo]

RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most people's sparge conditions.
Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
MHB

I thought the same as well, but heard others say that it makes no difference i.e sparging with RO

 

[Renzo]

I'd recommend getting yourself a free copy of EZWaterCalculator it's super easy to use and takes into account your current profile (RO is void of everything so that's easy) volumes, grainbill and SRM. I use it in conjunction with Beersmith and makes the water profiling very easy.

I've been using the calculator at Brewers friend http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ which is similar but doesn't take into account the grain. The article link that seamad posted throws a whole new spin on things however.

 

[Fourstar]

RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most peoples sparge conditions.
Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
MHB

Listen to the man!

When you're using RO water, I'd suggest adding at least a few of L of your standard water to get some trace elements there (unless its completely OTT with carbonates e.g. 300ppm+ then reduce it to 1-2L of your total water)

Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.

majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
the inverse = hoppy beers.

I usually go for a ratio of 2:1 adding the smaller ratio to my mash and the greater to the boil kettle. In your instance using RO water, I'd add the kettle ratio to your sparge water.

 

[Bribie G]

I do full volume BIAB and add my salts to the mash (i.e. mix them in with the dry grain) as they dissolve more easily in the lower pH provided by the mash, and I add enough to treat the entire water volume as if it's Pilsen Water or London Water whatever. My main salts are Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate. I rarely if ever use Gypsum - but do note that CaCl2 and MgSO4 will dissolve readily in hot water anyway, almost like sugar. Gypsum might be a bit of a problem for spargers - can it be pre-dissolved using say citric acid or something, or would that bind the ions somehow?
After all it's the ions that we are after, not the salts themselves which are just the precursors.

 

[Fourstar]

Gypsum might be a bit of a problem for spargers - can it be pre-dissolved using say citric acid or something, or would that bind the ions somehow?

Gypsum is fine as long as there are low carbonates in your water (Melbournes water it dissolves readily without any problems). Chalk on the other hand (which really requires a lowered pH struggles without the use of an acid.)