Salt Additons

[eamonnfoley]

RO water would be the worst possible choice for sparging.
The lower the ion concentration and the hotter the more likely you are to extract tannins, which is exactly the conditions you are creating with most people's sparge conditions.
Even if you did no other water chemistry, getting the pH right and at a minimum 50-75 ppm of calcium into your sparge water will be a bid help.
MHB

Can't see where your going with this? If you have proper mash PH and the chosen minerals in your mash, the minerals will just dilute into the pre-boil wort after sparging. So if you treat the mash only and have for example 150ppm Ca in mash, you will end up with say 75ppm in pre-boil wort. Sparging with soft or RO water will ensure PH doesnt creep up because there is no alkalinity, which will prevent the extraction of tannins which generally only happens at a high ph.

Saying RO isnt good for sparging is like saying naturally soft water (i.e. Pilsen or Melbourne) is no good for sparging.

 

[MHB]

I think the point is that you need to maintain a good pH and mineral salt profile during both the mash and the sparge. When you start to run off you are removing the salts you added to the mash (well what is left of them). If you sparge with un adjusted water the chance of extracting tannins will rise with RO water being so pure the odds will skyrocket.

This is a good read View attachment 08___The_role_of_pH.pdf
Snippet from above link
The husk of the malt contains polyphenol and silica compounds which are more easily extracted under alkaline (pH > 7.0) conditions. Polyphenols can produce a colloidal instability and astringency in the beer. Most of the polyphenols are extracted during the latter stages of sparging. It is important to ensure all brewing water is at least neutral or slightly acidic. Some brewers add mineral salts to all the brewing water including the sparge to maintain a lower pH thus avoiding this risk.
MHB

 

[eamonnfoley]

I think the point is that you need to maintain a good pH and mineral salt profile during both the mash and the sparge. When you start to run off you are removing the salts you added to the mash (well what is left of them). If you sparge with un adjusted water the chance of extracting tannins will rise with RO water being so pure the odds will skyrocket.

You will only extract tannins if you have alkalinity in the sparge water, driving up PH. Alkalinity is zero with RO or soft water. It has very little to do with other minerals in the water. Its the PH, which will not increase when sparging with soft/RO water. This is why people acidify their sparge water to get a similar effect. The minerals (Ca, Mg, SO4 etc) in that sparge water have little effect on this process. Their real effects are on mash PH and the final beer profile.

Certainly nothing wrong with sparging with mineralised water though - as long as its not too alkaline. And you can just acidify it if it is.

 

[MHB]

I think we sort of agree, yes you can sparge with pure water and probably get away with it.
Here is the inevitable But a little calcium and a pH adjustment wont do any harm, at pHs >7 you will be much more likely to extract Tannins, depending on temperature you can get some tannins even at or below pH 7 and its very easy to reduce the risk so why not. For the majority of brewers who dont have RO water I think its a necessity.
Im far from sure that the only thing extracted from the grist during sparging is sugars; Polyphenols being the obvious concern, Proteins and Oxalates among other products are worth looking at.
I cant find much research on what happens if you sparge with RO water, volumes on what happens in hundreds of breweries worldwide on a day to day basis, using their normal brewing water (as adjusted locally), so I think Ill stick to adding a pinch of calcium and a teaspoon or two of acid, and will follow the results of using purified water with interest.
And I do mean with interest, I look forward to hearing the results and it think this is a discussion well worth having, it’s not about being right or wrong but learning
MHB

 

[manticle]

I can't find much research on what happens if you sparge with RO water

Then why state emphatically that it would be the worst possible choice?

Going on that article you linked, providing the pH was 7 or less, it would be a better choice than many other water sources.

 

[MHB]

Because everything in the brewing literature, talking to all the pro brewers I know and a couple of decades of brewing emphasises the importance of making dam sure you dont extract tannins.
If you get a bit too hot, or your RO-MO unit isnt working quite as well as you think, or if you extract just a hint of something you arent expecting a good brew can go to **** in very short order for the want of a few of cents worth of water chemistry.
The big problem with pH is that its a logarithmic scale; it takes next to nothing to move between 6-7 or 7-8 and 10 times as much to go from 5-6 or 8-9, so from 5-9 takes 100 times as much.
The in term is Risk Management in this case very pure water is very risky if you know your water is either acidic or basic and treat it appropriately no problem, if you think its neutral and youre wrong problem.
10mL of food grade Lactic Acid is about 26 cents (at my retail prices), pretty cheap insurance.
MHB

 

[manticle]

I get why it's a good idea to treat your sparge water. It just doesn't make sense, in light of the link that you posted, why untreated RO water would be worse than untreated water that isn't RO.

 

[MHB]

I dont believe that is what the article says; It is important to ensure all brewing water is at least neutral or slightly acidic neutral is the minimum requirement not the optimum.
Thats rather unequivocal, in my previous post I outlined why I would be reluctant to trust RO-MO water.
If you can guarantee that your water is and will remain neutral, go right ahead and uses whatever you like. But if a brew cost you $26 and the acid to make sure the sparge pH is spot on is 26 cents the odds favour the acid addition by 100:1, I know what I will be doing.
MHB

 

[manticle]

That's not my point. Why is it the worst which is what you stated in your first post, not why would you treat it in order not to take risks or what can go wrong with RO water or whatever.

It's a fairly simple question - I'm not sure what's so confusing about it.

1. You stated RO water would be the worst water to sparge with unless treated with minerals.

2. Why, specifically RO water as opposed to any other water, issues with not treating any type of water notwithstanding?

 

[drsmurto]

That's not my point. Why is it the worst which is what you stated in your first post, not why would you treat it in order not to take risks or what can go wrong with RO water or whatever.

It's a fairly simple question - I'm not sure what's so confusing about it.

1. You stated RO water would be the worst water to sparge with unless treated with minerals.

2. Why, specifically RO water as opposed to any other water, issues with not treating any type of water notwithstanding?

RO water is very pure water, in effect void of all minerals. Any other water source will have some mineral content and therefore some buffering capacity.

Why anyone would use 2 vastly different water sources for mash in and sparge is beyond me. It makes no sense.

 

[manticle]

Thanks Doc.

What I'm not clear on though is why someone might not treating Perth water (for example) with a pH of 8.6 (figure hypothetical) for their sparge would somehow be less bad than someone not treating RO water with a pH of maybe 6.2.

I'm not suggesting that it isn't worse - I have no idea and make no claim to know. In light of the article and MHB's original statement, I would like to know if it really is and why. MHB suggests there is limited data so I'm not quite sure why he made the statement in the first place.

RO unit malfunction notwithstanding - surely anyone interested enough in water chemistry who was actually experiencing tannins would measure the pH of strike water, mash and sparge water?

Bear in mind that I am still slowly learning the ins and outs of water chemistry (and will be for some time) and make no claims to having any decent knowledge. I adjust my mash currently (roughly) and add extra salts to the boil but make no adjustments to the brewing liquor itself. I certainly have noticed no tannins so it's not an issue for me with my beer made on my system at the moment but I realise my experiential/anecdotal evidence is far from being conclusive. However understanding this stuff is interesting and I'm happy to learn from anyone who enjoys divulging knowledge without it being tempered by arrogance (not referring to you DS).

 

[bcp]

Listen to the man!
Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.

majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
the inverse = hoppy beers.

i'm just at the point of sorting out my water, and it's certainly making a difference to my brews.

I'm on cardinia water, which latest profile is
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate *
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm)
3.7 1.5 4.7 7.6 1.3 11.5

So it's low in calcium, magnesium and sulfates. My water volumes are 32litre mash (biab), boil starts about 28-29 litres for a 23-25 litre batch.

MY TREATMENT
1. I've started using about 5g Calcium choride, and on hoppier beers with about 3-5g calcium sulfate. I'm ignoring magnesium.
2. I haven't ever measured pH. EZ_water calculator suggests i'm sitting on 5.45 which seems fine.


Fourstar suggests a minimum of 10g calcium. So tweaking between gypsum and calc chloride for hoppy/malty should be all i need.

Am i in the ball park?

 

[bcp]

Damn, what happened to my carefully aligned table.

 

[Smashin]

Unless i've scan read this thread wrong, pH and alkalinity have been confused. Alkalinity is not the same as pH, it is the ionic concentration, hence alkalinity is a measure of how easily the pH can be changed. RO and very soft water are the less ideal water for sparging. Tannin extraction will become an issue towards the end of sparging as the water pH can more easily rise as the sugar concentration drops. Temperature is the other half of the equation but isn't an issue on its own for tannin extraction, remember decoction mashing doesn't suffer and the husks get the crap boiled out of them, this is due to pH of the wort, as we sparge the sugar concentration drops and the pH rises and here is where out water alkalinity AND pH come into play.

My water is extremely soft Ca<20ppm and Mg<5ppm (as measured with my KH/GH test kit) and <30ppm total hardness as measured with an electronic dissolved solids meter. While I have always stopped my runnings @ 1.008-1.010, since putting salt additions or citric acid in my sparge water these final running's do taste noticeably different, the dry tonged tea type flavor isn't there. I'm not sure how soft Melbourne water is but you can easily try this for yourself and taste the difference first hand.

Can you sparge with RO or very soft water? yes, but more care needs to be taken to avoid tannin extraction from over sparging or letting the final running's proceed to far. And I think that's the point MHB was trying to make.

Smashin :icon_cheers:

mmmm 5pm beer time.....

 

[eamonnfoley]

Thanks Doc.

What I'm not clear on though is why someone might not treating Perth water (for example) with a pH of 8.6 (figure hypothetical) for their sparge would somehow be less bad than someone not treating RO water with a pH of maybe 6.2.

I'm not suggesting that it isn't worse - I have no idea and make no claim to know. In light of the article and MHB's original statement, I would like to know if it really is and why. MHB suggests there is limited data so I'm not quite sure why he made the statement in the first place.

RO unit malfunction notwithstanding - surely anyone interested enough in water chemistry who was actually experiencing tannins would measure the pH of strike water, mash and sparge water?

Bear in mind that I am still slowly learning the ins and outs of water chemistry (and will be for some time) and make no claims to having any decent knowledge. I adjust my mash currently (roughly) and add extra salts to the boil but make no adjustments to the brewing liquor itself. I certainly have noticed no tannins so it's not an issue for me with my beer made on my system at the moment but I realise my experiential/anecdotal evidence is far from being conclusive. However understanding this stuff is interesting and I'm happy to learn from anyone who enjoys divulging knowledge without it being tempered by arrogance (not referring to you DS).

Given this "thread blowout" is my fault. Let me explain further.

PH of RO water is irrelevent. Without going into the chemistry, the ions are unsettled and PH of RO water varies a lot (you'll find the meter jumps all over the place). Main point is that it is devoid of alkalinity and other minerals.

Ok - consider the following common practice:
A brewer in Melbourne, Pilsen, or Portland (all very soft water) treats their mash with salts (and acid if needed) to get the right PH, and also sets up the ion balance for the final beer through this practice. They then sparge with their very soft water (untreated) which has very little of anything in it.

Why is that practice any different using RO water in the mash, treating mash with salts (and acid if needed), then sparging with straight RO? RO is very similar to very soft water. The mash chemistry still gets the minerals it needs, as does fermentation. What damage can RO water possibly do during a sparge that soft water wouldnt? They both basically rinse without raising PH - which is what you want (and why alkaline sparge water usually needs to be acidified).

 

[Wolfy]

MY TREATMENT
1. I've started using about 5g Calcium choride, and on hoppier beers with about 3-5g calcium sulfate. I'm ignoring magnesium.
...
Fourstar suggests a minimum of 10g calcium. So tweaking between gypsum and calc chloride for hoppy/malty should be all i need.

Am i in the ball park?

Actually Fourstar suggested a maximum of 10g calcium:

Assume the rest of your minerals/salts are 0 or close to treat it like Melbournes water. For 20-23L batches a max total of 10g calcium based salts will get you in the ballparks you need for the beer profiles you desire.

majority CaCl2 with a minority Caso4 = malty beers
the inverse = hoppy beers.

However, if you skip to the last two pages of 'Key Concepts in Water Treatment' you'll see that you are safely on the lower side of the ball park figures.

 

[CosmicBertie]

Anyone fancy a beer?

I got a pH meter (ebay, woo) and tested my water last week. pH of 7.4. Tap water at room temperature (around 20C). This was AFTER ive brewed my latest batch (DrS Landlord) and the beer tastes good (I mainly brew British Ales). I cant detect any tannins, which im guessing would be like an over-stewed tea taste.

I have been adding 2 tsp of Calcium Chloride to the mash as the pH papers I used only went up to pH5.7 and the colour was always at 5.7. If my water is at pH7.4, I doubt that the grains and CaCl are going to bring it down 2 points? So I guess it would be worth adding a bit of acid to bring that down to the magic 5.5?

If anyone fancies at taste test, let me know

 

[Wolfy]

I have been adding 2 tsp of Calcium Chloride to the mash as the pH papers I used only went up to pH5.7 and the colour was always at 5.7. If my water is at pH7.4, I doubt that the grains and CaCl are going to bring it down 2 points? So I guess it would be worth adding a bit of acid to bring that down to the magic 5.5?

If anyone fancies at taste test, let me know

Actually in theory that's almost exactly what you'd expect.
Starting with a water of pH of 7.3, mashing 100% pale malt (according to Palmer's spreadsheet) would give a mash pH of 5.8, add the small salt addition and it will drop it a fraction closer to 5.7

 

[Steve@PMF82]

My limited understanding , happy to be corrected, RO , distilled and most rainwater are devoid of pretty much anything.

From other reading that is not brewing related, pure water such as above by nature will absorb pretty much anything it is subject to, eg: even thoughts or intentions from music, monks ect.

Back to brewing, so this same pure water that is not treated for sparging, may pull or absorb unwanted products from the grains especially at higher temps.

Since going down the water treatment path, i use rainwater and have always just treated my entire brewing water at the start with salts then adjusted the PH so i know when i rinse my grains, (dunking the bag- not really a sparge) i know for sure that my PH will not creep up and extract unwanted tannins.

 

[eamonnfoley]

My limited understanding , happy to be corrected, RO , distilled and most rainwater are devoid of pretty much anything.

From other reading that is not brewing related, pure water such as above by nature will absorb pretty much anything it is subject to, eg: even thoughts or intentions from music, monks ect.

Back to brewing, so this same pure water that is not treated for sparging, may pull or absorb unwanted products from the grains especially at higher temps.

Since going down the water treatment path, i use rainwater and have always just treated my entire brewing water at the start with salts then adjusted the PH so i know when i rinse my grains, (dunking the bag- not really a sparge) i know for sure that my PH will not creep up and extract unwanted tannins.

PH can only creep up when you sparge with alkaline water. Soft water (including RO) will not extract tannins from a sparge, its just not going to happen. Here's some info from the Braukaiser - I learnt most things water from him and AJDelange. Braukaiser's spreadsheets are worth their weight in gold. You can actually predict mash PH pretty damn accurately with it (works for me).

Originally Posted by braukaiser.com
But sparging with high alkalinity water can quickly consume the mash's buffer capacity and lead to pH levels that lead to excessive tannin extraction into the wort. This is because the high concentration of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water forms a strong buffer. As the sweet wort is diluted and with it the mash’s ability to buffer its pH at a level closer to the mash pH, the sparge water and its pH are taking over which can raise the pH above 6.0 and cause excessive tannin extraction.

There are a number of ways that this pH raise during sparging can be prevented or at least mitigated such that the pH is not allowed to raise above 5.8:

Limited sparging: If sparging is stopped before the pH of the water, that most of the grain sits in, rises above 6.0 an excessive amount of tannins will not be extracted into the boil kettle. While this limits the efficiency of the lauter, it is the most practical way of controlling tannin extraction from the grain husks. It also complies with the Reinheitsgebot (German beer purity law). An elegant way of limiting the amount of sparging is lowering the amount of water used for sparging and increasing the amount of water used for mashing. Pilsner beers, which are delicate beers that would suffer from excessive tannin extraction, are brewed with a mash thickness of up to 5.5 l/kg (2.5 qt/lb) which limits the amount of water that is available for sparging [Narziss, 2005]
Low alkalinity sparge water: The buffer capacity (alkalinity) of soft water is not strong enough to counteract the buffer of the mash even at high dilution rates. If brewing water is build from distilled or reverse osmosis water the salt additions destined for the sparge water can be made in the kettle while “plain” water is used for sparging. For brewers who care, this method is not approved by the Reinheitsgebot.
Sparge water acidification: The sparge water alkalinity can be reduced though acid additions and its pH can be lowered to a pH of 6 where it will only have a weak buffer capacity and will not be able to significantly counteract the pH that is set by the mash’s strong buffer. It is compliant with the Reinheitsgebot if lactic acid is used that was derived from malt based fermentation with malt derived lactobacillus.